Dr. Clyde Barnett, III guest hosted The Access Point alongside Tristan and Mike, and they collectively took a deep dive into the subject of strategic self-advocacy. 

Read the Show Below

SPEAKER 1 0:10

Everybody welcome to the access point. I am excited really, really excited for this episode. I’m excited to be back on with Tristan again. It was like we were on for like, I think like two weeks and it has been like, a couple months. So yeah, Tristan are back on together. And we have an amazing guest for y’all. But before we jump into that, let’s jump into like, what is living corporate? Like if this your first time here, what is that?



SPEAKER 2 0:38

Yes, yes. Good question, Mike. So, living corporate is a writing and podcasting platform dedicated to exploring and celebrating underrepresented identities in corporate America. We are early to mid-career consultants who come together based on our shared desire to have frank conversations about the way we exist, survive and succeed in corporate spaces. So you know, as a collective, we represent a broad spectrum of beliefs, cultural cultures, and identities. And we know that our differences are shaped our perspectives and experiences in a corporate America. So we want to engage with other voices that often go unheard and have our conversations out loud. So living corporate is for anyone who wants to have these conversations with us and push the needle for forward on how we can create and sustain spaces that reflect you inclusiveness. Now, LinkedIn has quite a bit of content that it shares, right. So you know, from podcasts, to different live shows and writing stuff, but right now we’re in the access point. So tell us a little bit about what the access point is, Mike.



SPEAKER 1 1:40

Yeah, yeah. So the access point, is a part of the living corporate network. And it’s our weekly web show where we try to bring real talk, and we try to prepare you for the workforce. This content like truly is for everybody. But we focus on preparing Black and Brown College students for the future of work. And so every week, we have an incredible guest to help us discuss and whatever topic that we’re trying to discuss. And this week, we have with us, the amazing Dr. Clyde Barnett, with the like the best hoodie that you can have. Right now. I want to appreciate, and I appreciate that your hoodie strings are tied. I just, Devin on deck shout out.



SPEAKER 3 2:25

Thank you. Thank you.



SPEAKER 1 2:26

Yeah, glad to have you. So tell us about you. Who are you? What do you do? And why did you say yes, the access point?



SPEAKER 3 2:34

Yeah. So first, thank you, Tristan, and Mike for having me. I really, really enjoyed the live in corporate podcasts for a lot of the reasons that you name interest in. So this community will be having conversations, critical conversations with people is always important. So my name is Dr. Clive Burnett, I go by Dr. B. I’m an adjunct professor at Eastern Michigan University. I’m also the executive director of my own educational consulting agency where I do a lot of community based work and a lot of community organizing work. And so in that I’ve partnered with state and other community agencies, higher education institutions, k 12, districts, to really, really change the narrative change the outcomes, change the professional development of educators who are serving black children. That’s super, super important to me. And in my work, I’ve noticed that a lot of what I do can apply across a lot of different areas. So I’m looking at more private sectors as well, around what leadership development really is. How do you continuously engage in a leadership development process as you get more comfortable in your work? What does advocacy look like for you? So all of this was a perfect alignment, the stars aligned, I saw college access, I’m always down to talk to college students all the time, anytime every day. They don’t leave me. So I have a class and the next thing you know, I’m advising them for like two or three years. So I just jumped at the opportunity, because it was just perfectly in line.



SPEAKER 2 4:14

So sad. Yeah. I think there’s more connections between education and corporate than a lot of people think, you know, and we often don’t have that conversation enough. So it’s always it’s always nice when someone can draw those parallels. So we have quite a few questions that we’ve prepared for Dr. B here. But what we want you guys to do if you’re tuning in and you have any questions, go ahead and drop them in the Ask Questions section. We’d love to hear what you guys would like to know, because today we’re going to be talking about strategic self-advocacy. And so you know, if you have any questions on that, if anything pops in your head while we’re talking don’t hesitate to use that ask question feature. So, with that, I’m going to go and kick it off, and then I’ll volley it over to you, Mike, back and forth. So, you know, Dr. B, tell us a little bit, in your opinion, what is self-advocacy.



SPEAKER 3 5:10

So, a couple things come to mind. So first, is understanding what your interests are, and figuring out a way to explore them. And it’s being honest with yourself to become more clear about what you need to. So it’s not just I want to be a teacher, I will go to a teacher education program, I’m going to get my teaching certificate, and I’m a teacher. No, why are you passionate about teaching? What do you want to teach? Also, if you’re not good at math, you probably shouldn’t be teaching math. Right? Right. So figure it out, figure it out, what’s your area is what’s your niche is super, super important. And so often, though, what stands in our way is the pride like not knowing is so uncomfortable for us. And so advocacy also is asking for help. You don’t even know what you don’t know. So the only way to get there, the only way to understand what you need is to constantly ask questions, be real intimate with what your needs are. And be clear about what your interests are. And those can change. Those can change at any point. But as long as you’re clear, I think this will work out pretty well for you.



SPEAKER 1 6:22

I love that. I love that. Yeah. I mean, being honest with yourself like that. I love that you mentioned, like teacher training program. Like we’re both in the education space. Like, like, I’m like, we need to get some more time off this. So we can talk about how you can help teach for America where I work now. And so yeah, but you know, the example you gave about, look, if you’re not good at math, why are you a math teacher? When I first became a teacher, I walked past the classroom, I heard the math teacher say I hate math just as much as you do. And I’m like, why are you? So still, you’re keeping it with school and education, all that. So why is self-advocacy important for college students and recent graduates?



SPEAKER 3 7:11

So this is huge ad, I talked to I’m blue in the face, sometimes with my students about this. When people say to you that college, your time in college is like no other time. That is so true. Because this space is a hub of resources, I mean, thing in to the point where, if you ask, they can sometimes create it, right? Like it’s like that type of resource. So it’s super, super important, based on the people that you know, they’re their hubs of advisors, and administrators and professors who have worked across whatever your interests are. And so if you’re not taking advantage of that, you’re missing out on a major opportunity, you’re paying 1000s of dollars to be at this place, you better milk it for all, because your next job literally can be from a connection and one of the spaces that you occupy on campus. So that’s super, super important. And for recent graduates, I don’t think that changes much. So it is not your I was an academic advisor. I study advising, I work with advisors, these are not the experts on your field. They’re not those people are in place to get you to your classes, you need 15 credits, here they are, that’s what they’re there to do. That’s it. And they’re not going to be able to tell you a lot about the field. Well, who can do that as your professors, but if you’re going class not talking to them, if there’s no attention on relationship building, also secretaries and departments are the plug talk to them. They are the ones who have access and information to what you’re trying to do what you’re trying to achieve. They know the fields the best, they know the trends the best, they know what resume should look like, they know what you should highlight what kind of internships you could get, they would know that better. So I say this is a perfect space to practice to. Because the grace that you’ll get as a college student, you don’t always necessarily get as a professional. So right now is critical, critical times.



SPEAKER 2 9:16

Yes. See, that’s what I really, really appreciate there is that, like, self-advocacy is something that you have to practice, right? It’s something that you build up, you build up this skill, this isn’t something that you’re immediately you know how know how to do, because honestly, if we’re being real about it, most of the time, when you come through K through 12, self-advocacy sort of beaten out of you, right? You’re not taught to speak up for yourself and really stand up for the things that you need to go to work to get to where you’re trying to go. And so when you get into college, and you sort of get into this quote unquote, adult world, now we’ve thrown you into it, right? You got to figure out your own pathways. You need to be able to speak up for yourself, and college is a great testing ground to figure out how to do that. Effectively for you, right? Because advocacy is also something that looks different for a lot of people. So keeping sort of on that same vein, then, you know, if it looks different for every, every person, how and where do you think we should be strategic in our self-advocacy? Right? And I know this is only a couple of examples you can you can give us everything but like, how and where do you believe we should be strategic and our self-advocacy.



SPEAKER 3 10:26

So I think any space that is intended to serve a particular purpose in your life is a space where you should be strategic, especially spaces that can propel or repel. So right, like, if you can go into a conference space, and share your work, if you can go to a gas station and share your work with someone that you are happens to happens to talk to over a bag of Doritos, right? I don’t really see the space as mattering much. I don’t think there’s a limit. Um, I also think there are I don’t believe rules, right? I’m kind of, I’m like, I don’t, don’t tell me what to do. Right? Don’t tell me what to do. Oppositional defiance for me is real. So I don’t believe in these rules. And research has shown me time and time again, that the rules changed, depending on who’s playing. And so is I’m not going to follow your guidelines, I’m not going to wait to the perfect opportunity, because this could literally be what was on the other side of this anks. And hold up is my dreams, and I’m not going to hold up for you.



SPEAKER 2 11:35

[Inaudible]



SPEAKER 3 11:38

We are out of time. And if you want to do things, you can’t be held up by what people don’t think what they going to say. And if you are of a certain skin tone, you wouldn’t question yourself on that anyway. So pick on it, I wouldn’t do that. Right? If you see an opportunity, and you don’t see that you are doing yourself a disservice.



SPEAKER 2 12:01

Yeah, yeah. 100%. And I can’t speak to this enough. And I actually say that a lot of the success I’ve had in my business is simply because of my ability to speak up for myself, right. So like, a lot of a lot of them, you know, publicity that I started getting, and people starting to know what was going on was when I was featured in black enterprise as one of their modern men. Well, how do you get in black enterprises, when they’re minor men, you have to be nominated? Well, I saw this form, and I was like, I’m nominate myself. I’m about to go up in here. And I had the part for the person who was not the nominate or, and I put I am, I am the nominee. Like that was the relationship. The nominee, I was like, even big, I love it. One way or another. But what ended up happening, I ended up being featured in black enterprise simply because I spoke up for myself in my work, right? I mean, it was something that I felt that could propel me, like you said, so why would I let that pass to be passed me up right now? I could have been like, Hey, you know, Hey, friend, can you fill this out? For me? Yeah. Oh, I look up to do this. That’s just what’s about to happen. I’m



SPEAKER 3 13:13

Still in that it’s self-advocacy, whether you did it yourself, or you ask somebody, right? You saw this and you thought I got the credentials for this. I want it. I’ve done this work. I want to be involved in this. I’m going to ask.



SPEAKER 1 13:26

Yeah, you know, let me let y’all in a little secret. A lot of people see folks making these lists, and getting Forbes features, and making given TED Talks. Most of them nominated themselves. Like, just so you, you, you apply to give a TEDx talk. Nobody just finds you on the internet. So you have to figure that the same thing that Tristan talked about looking at that application and going, I’m filling this out, you better you better get on that.



SPEAKER 3 13:56

Right? Go for it. Go for it, the sky’s the limit.



SPEAKER 2 14:00

And real quick, before we get to the next question, Dr. B, your video is National enough for me. Is it showing up for you, Mike?



SPEAKER 3 14:05

I see it. Yeah.



SPEAKER 2 14:08

That’s really awesome. Okay, well, let’s keep running. I want to make sure that people was able to see.



SPEAKER 3 14:12

Yeah, yeah. Well, this is actually a great time. Before we hit this next question. I’m going to pause real quick and say, invite your people get your people here right now. Because a, Doctor B is up here preaching. So like, get people up here. Like, like, let they need to hear this. This is going to be one of the most I feel like one of the most helpful episodes. So we have a question that somebody asked, and because they can’t see what’s on our list, but Tristan, I think you should ask the question that you because you wrote this question. And it was beautifully written. So I want you to ask your next question, because it kind of ties in with this one.



SPEAKER 1 14:56

Yeah, so it’s so funny. That this this happened in this way? So I’m going to say the question that was it that was asked in this chat. And I don’t know how to pronounce your name correctly. So please, please do you know charge to my head and not my heart? But I think its okay. But your question says, what are the differences between self-advocacy and self-promotion? Are they the same thing? And it’s so funny, because the next question that I wrote down was, sometimes people view self-advocacy as being self centered, or in certain instances boastful. How would you suggest someone deals with that? Right? So I think those are sort of one in the same. So do you see self-advocacy and self-promotion as the same? Or what are the differences there? And sort of how can we navigate that?



SPEAKER 3 15:48

So I think, I think they certainly are intertwined. I think this is really more, whatever you want to call it. Tony Morrison comes to mind, she says, definitions belong to the definers, not the defined. So that’s not your business. I really don’t think that that’s what you should focus on, right? being open and honest with yourself about what you need is a self-reflective practice, which means you are looking internally, you are looking at what you need, where you are, but what you got, which takes vulnerability, courage, or strength. If that means that you’re being boastful, then boastful it is, if that means that you’re being braggadocious, and self centered, or whatever, and what if you know, in your heart of hearts, that you are doing this, for your own betterment, and for your own work, I wouldn’t pay any attention. The other part of this though, is as you climb, you’re supposed to be helping somebody else. But if you are entering spaces and excluding people, if you are, you know, not dropping people’s names and spaces where you know, their name really needs to be brought up, then that question is more about your own practice than what you’re saying. You must not be you must be feeling self centered, you must be trying to be boastful and collect all these accolades. When I listen, my students know, I’m going to plug I have helped students go out of the country for the first time and not pay a dime. I don’t help people go to conferences without nothing. I don’t find tuition dollars. And this is based on my own work. So I didn’t just go get it and say you could, no, I wouldn’t got it. And here is the whole playbook. I don’t lose anything by helping you. I don’t lose anything. In fact, I gained more faces that look like mine, in these spaces that don’t want us there. Yeah, so I and we need as many of us as we can get, because this is just what we’re up against. So I wouldn’t pay that any attention unless you are not doing your work.



SPEAKER 1 17:50

I love that. [Inaudible]



SPEAKER 3 18:00

Okay, you know, for me that that is a major key here, because, you know, we have an Eva [Inaudible] that’s running this country right now. And do you think she ever feels like he is boastful, right, and he ain’t did nothing. Literally, that was worth buying bicycle and cannot count. Since when, right? Remember, I said I sometimes when I find myself in those situations, when I don’t when I feel like I’m, I might be being boastful or, you know, I am, you know, talking, I feel like maybe I’m talking too much about myself or asking too much for me, whatever the case may be, I sometimes go back to the question. If I was a white man with this be an issue.



SPEAKER 2 18:57

They wouldn’t like it.



SPEAKER 1 19:00

Like I asked myself that, because in most cases, if we’re being really the answer is going to be no, I wouldn’t have a problem asking for whatever I need or speaking up for myself or promoting myself, whatever that looks like. Because sometimes self-advocacy, especially in the work that I do, is promoting yourself. They like it right. And so for me to actually thrive and for my business to be successful, I have to promote myself, which is also speaking up for the results and the things that I’ve been able to create. So, you know, I think sometimes it’s just saying, like, you know, honestly, what good are counterparts even think like that? And in most cases, the answer is going to be no.



SPEAKER 3 19:40

Right? And they never had to, like the structures in place would already accommodate their needs. Right. So they had to think about it. And if they, if there is a need everyone scrambles to get a hammer. Mm hmm. So yep, I don’t think we should ever hold yourself back by asking what you need.



SPEAKER 1 19:57

Exactly. Exactly. That that was the perfect answer. Because when I saw that question yesterday, I got excited because I was like, I mean, like, I feel like there’s so many so many really talented young people that are closing their mouth because they don’t want to be. They don’t want to seem arrogant. And every time I talk to somebody about posting content online, the first thing they say is, I don’t want to seem self-absorbed. And I’m like, nobody says that about Gary Vaynerchuk. Hey, we love Gary Vee. But don’t forget, he’s a white man. And nobody says nobody calls himself absorbed, they just eat it up. And you go on tik tok, you’ll find 1520 white men per day, self-promoting, but when we



SPEAKER 3 20:41

Or and they know that you say this, and they’re still posting it. Right?



SPEAKER 1 20:46

Exactly. Like they don’t care.



SPEAKER 3 20:49

I mean, I think that’s, that might be one of their main messages, who cares what they say?



SPEAKER 2 20:55

At That point, then it’s not for you, if you are a person who was going to help me if you’re not going to provide the resource, if you think I’m boasting that whatever, I whatever, I asked how whatever I presented, whatever the case may be, you were not the target audience, please move on. Right? Um, so like, that’s just that’s just how I feel about it. At the end of the day, because amazing.



SPEAKER 1 21:15

Me too. It’s a big internet.



SPEAKER 2 21:21

And, and like, honestly, when you even look at it from like, a marketing perspective, right? We talked about in marketing that someone needs to see something seven times before they’re ready to make a decision and buy something, right. Why do we think that that’s any difference for you advocating for yourself or saying that you need something in your job, or saying that you needed razors that you need that, you’re probably going to have to bring that up multiple times, you’re going to be persistent about it. And sometimes it can feel boastful. Sometimes it can feel like you’re doing too much. But at the end of the day, if that’s what you need, that’s what you need. And you ask me.



SPEAKER 3 21:51

Yes, I agree. 100%. Yeah,



SPEAKER 1 21:55

I love it. Let’s, let’s hit this next question, because I think we can stay here for the rest. So sometimes speaking up for yourself can have consequences, like during school or throughout your career. So how do you suggest people navigate those consequences?



SPEAKER 3 22:15

So I think everything has consequences, whether we like the consequences. So I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying too much about the concepts of it, but knowing that your decisions will lead to some particular outcome, right, you have to know upfront. By this, it’s speaking up in this way with this person at this moment is going to could yield the following results. But I have never felt bad after it. Maybe I’m in my 50s for a little bit after something that’s happened. But I once I get past that, I never feel bad for speaking up for myself in the space. When I am feeling like I’ve been wronged, or, you know, something that’s happened, that is unfair, I don’t get what I need. I don’t I never feel bad about that. Now, that’s different than doing something wrong and coming back and apologizing and owning that that’s different. But if a space is doing all of this to you making this making you feel this way, is this the space you want to be in anyway. Like, if the consequences would lead to you being ejected, then you were ejectable, before this happened. And for college students, current college students, there are 1000s of people to go talk to, there’s another advisor, there is somebody over that advisor, there’s a dean, and if you don’t go to school, they have no jobs, these people are there to serve you. So I mean, if you find yourself in a particular situation, find the next person so you can get what you need. Because that’s going to that’s the reality of this. But it’s not stopping because one person said no, just go into you get a guess.



SPEAKER 1 24:03

yeah, that that’s beautiful to hear a college professor come out and say what I believe needs to be said in higher ed, which is that every single adult on a college campus is there to serve students like that. That’s refreshing. You know, what’s interesting, is that the, I did a college speech debate, and there was a team, every now and then there are these teams. We were actually one of them at Texas State, but they come out of nowhere and they’re like all these people really good. Eastern Michigan University was one of them. And there was a woman I’ll never forget her name is Karen yelverton. And Karen said, Oh, I went there because those people care. And to hear you say like, that’s like full circle, right? Like that moment. Is it to hear you say like, because that’s, that’s not the norm in college campuses, like, normally college campuses. They’re like, Look, I’m here to do this research. You have professors like I’m here to make this university famous. And you are an accessory. Like No, no. Like, it’s the exact opposite. I love that.



SPEAKER 3 25:01

Yeah. And that’s, that’s super important to me. Because we often do research on people and not with people. And that’s what my work. My work is, is community based. My mentor, we don’t go into spaces, making assumptions about what’s going on what’s not going on what’s lacking. All of these are rich environments with assets, and culture and culture and context that we don’t understand. I’m an outsider entering your space. And so to not censor the people that we’re there to serve is educational malpractice is just simply what has, so I’m I just don’t take that kind of approach in my work.



SPEAKER 2 25:38

There we go.



SPEAKER 1 25:39

That’s it.



SPEAKER 2 25:47

All right.



SPEAKER 1 25:57

Right now, like, yeah, somebody’s going to read it. Yeah. But no, I think that I think that is absolutely amazing. I know, some people in here going to know exactly what I say, when I when I talk about this, when we talk about consequences, I’m all about having my receipts. So you know, I always like to make sure that any conversation that I have around anything I need, what I feel like is going on that needs to be addressed. Because I can’t do what I need to do whatever it is, you know, after I have that conversation, we following up with a note, you see here multiple times, you know, if I’m at work, and I’m advocating for myself with my boss, I’m following that up per conversation, here’s the things that I stated that I needed, here’s what you know, your response, whatever the case may be, because, you know, if you’re going to try to do something to me, I want to make sure I have everything I need to once again, advocate for myself, right? So you know, if that professor is trying to penalize you, now that you’ve asked for whatever you need, now you have a, you have a case on your hand, you can go file a complaint against that Professor, because you now have receipts of what you’ve done, right? And if your boss now is trying to get rid of you, because you told them you need X, Y and Z. Okay, now you have a retaliatory lawsuit on your hands, because you have actual records of what’s going on. So sometimes it’s also about backing yourself up. And that that to me is also part of the strategic self-advocacy there, right is making sure that you’re setting yourself up to play the long game if necessary. But I think you know, what, you said that Dr. B is important, right? I would find more often than not, it’s more, you’re more likely to get the nose, then you already get people who are going to downright try get rid of you or, you know, whatever the case may be. And if that’s the case, you just need to keep going until you get that yes. And that’s just you only need one. Yes, right. You only need one. Yes, it may take a lot of nose but you only need one.



SPEAKER 2 28:01

Yeah, I’m serious.



SPEAKER 1 28:10

I’m like, Listen, y’all like we, we, like we just launched this fellowship, this adult youth partnership, like because we want to send that same message that like, Look, if you are in education, and you are not serving students, that is educational malpractice. So you preach it.



SPEAKER 3 28:32

Are you playing with people’s babies? Like I don’t have you? I don’t want to see nobody’s mom and park like, I don’t know, I don’t know those problems. So when your baby is in this space, right? As much as I can. I’m like, right?



SPEAKER 2 28:48

So many people forget that. Like, I could just, I could just back him back to having an advisor who, you know, didn’t really care about what I was trying to do. Right, and basically also trying to steer me away from medicine because I was black. And then also trying to tell me that, you know, some of the other things I might want to pursue weren’t wouldn’t make money. And instead of focusing on Hello, I’m here to get the education and I’m here to say where I would like to end up right, like it was more of a guiding me based on what they thought was best rather than, you know, me, what I felt was best for me. And, you know, I had to either work with that person and advocate for myself or advocate for myself by finding another person to help me get to where I wanted to go. Right. And so, so sometimes, you know, advocating for yourself can literally just be cutting off that person and finding other



SPEAKER 3 29:43

Indeed. Yep.



SPEAKER 2 29:44

Yeah. So okay, so I’m going to switch gears from looking at that from the sort of college perspective and let’s talk a little bit about why is self-advocacy important for like seasoned career professionals, right. Why is that important for them?



SPEAKER 3 30:00

So I mean, I can situate it right now in this pandemic, so you’ve been working a job for, you know, however many years, you got a staff of 11. That’s already a lot of work. You know, maybe you’ve been quiet this whole time, just me maybe work there. 10 years, you’ve been quiet managing people getting that standard phrase. And then a pandemic happens. And so then now you got to pivot, hashtag pivot the word right here, online, and then suddenly, maybe there’s layoffs in one area. And you know, now your supervision goes from 11 to 32. So you’re supervising 32 remote staff. Not to mention, you know, you maybe you got life and family, also black, brown, navigating what that means in these spaces. And a whole time you get paid the same salary change, and so that you, if you don’t advocate, you will find yourself in those spaces where you have been doing the same thing for so long your job description that you got when you apply. And what you do currently are like, this is a totally different, I’m just saying even in this company no more great. So that there’s it being quiet over that amount of time. And then you get to a pandemic, they just think they can pile more work on. Not taking into account the people management skills, not taking into account the leadership skills, not taking into account the project and transition, transition management skills and leadership that goes into that, again, you getting paid the same amount, right. So not to mention in a pandemic, who is getting impacted the most is black and brown folks. So you are more likely to have relatives, cousins, yourself impacted by this and your health in in a more personal and up close way than maybe your colleagues will. You may have staff, you may have family who are essentially essential workers in whatever capacity whether that’s a grocery store, or a medical professional, whatever capacity that can’t stay in the house to work remote all day, and you worry about them, right? All of this is happening around you, as a mid-level professional, and no one stops or cares to stop and ask how you’re doing. What’s going on what do you need, didn’t send you know, hotspot instance, you know, computer, your desk is about to fall over from all the transition from the office to home you done, right? All of this is what happens to me career professionals, you’re already paying 90 K, you’re good as far as salary we are you already know how to manage people, let’s just keep doing it. And you become the sole correspondent for all things diversity, equity inclusion, because black bodies are still getting gunned down in the street, and suddenly black lives matter to your company. So all of this falls to you. And the whole time you said. So in these moments, especially in these moments when everybody’s generous, right? I think it’s super, super important to advocate for yourself from that salary to the literal equipment that somebody’s going to send you in a MacBook, right? Like, if you want me to be plugging in with all these people, we need to stagger these per these employee reviews, we need to figure this out. Because if you want me to manage all of this, I need some things. If you can’t meet if you can’t meet these requirements, this is what my job description was.



SPEAKER 2 33:34

Look, don’t get me started. Look, somebody people have had to completely change the way they do work, change everything that they do. And yet, you know, they’re being asked to take concessions people are, I’m very interested to see how this performance management stuff pans out this compensation planning for next year, because I don’t even think people are going to be getting the raises that they were used to getting because companies and organizations are taking a hit too. And so now you are sitting in a situation yourself, right monetarily because your career is not, or your pay is not progressing in any way, shape, or form. So, you know, look, don’t get me started with that I literally just said in a tip that I sent over, to be to go out, it could be that it could have gone out for today or go out on Saturday. But I literally said you have to become your own biggest advocate by Mastering the Art of self-promotion. And in the art of self-advocacy. Like it’s just really those two things go hand in hand in your career. And it’s really important because otherwise, you could literally lose a job if you do not speak up to get the things you need to get the job done. Right. So you know is essential for your career growth in your recognition and sort of where you want to go for you to number one, figure out how to be in tune with what you need. And then number two, actually be able to convey that and you know, in a way that can get you what you need. Because sometimes it’s also about backing up why you need the thing right to write. You can’t just say, you know, oh, I need, you know, a new MacBook. And I’m like, Yeah, but Tristan, we gave you a new computer like three months ago. So what? Do you need a new MacBook? Because we got to do all this stuff online? Now. It’s not holding. It’s not holding a charge. It’s not the cameras not good enough. People can’t hear me whatever. You need to speak up and advocate for why you need to think. But yeah, it’s…



SPEAKER 3 35:42

Since two of your questions. And so one, justifying why you are asking for your things for one. And you mentioned, the awards part. That’s something that happens often in these organizations too, you start doing all of this extra work. And you know, you’re not asking for additional things just kind of grin and bear it. And next thing, you know, you’re the employee of the month. And this is our star leader in this particular thing, you get the nice little frame. There you go. And that’s kind of where it ends. Right. Right. So sometimes, organizations can hide behind these accolades. If you were really it should be, it should show up in different ways.



SPEAKER 2 36:19

Yeah, like, Girl, I don’t want that piece of paper. You print it from the office printer right there on the store and got me a nice little frame. That’s cute. But I like this nice $7,000 raise that I [Inaudible] right now. That’s what I would like. Let’s get ready. Now the recognition should be given.



SPEAKER 3 36:38

Right. Right, right.



SPEAKER 2 36:41

You’re muted, Mike.



SPEAKER 1 36:46

I’m a man. I’m a man. I’m like, I like I left the job after two weeks once because they made me a team leader. And I was like, this is so awesome. Thank you. Now let’s talk about salary. They’re like, Oh, no, there’s no increase, and it’s not negotiable. I was like, Okay, well. And then in two weeks, I said, I have somewhere else that was like two and a half times the salary, which came from advocating for myself online. Everything that’s in this video right now, like, I didn’t pay for this, I didn’t pay for this chair. I paid for this model. Like it’s



SPEAKER 3 37:24

Wait, yeah.



SPEAKER 1 37:27

And teachers, if you if you are an educator in a K to 12. School, you can say that you can negotiate this in your contract. Like, I negotiated a new laptop in my contract every single year. Like you can you can negotiate that stuff. You can negotiate budgets, all kinds of stuff.



SPEAKER 2 37:47

Yeah. And for those who are in corporate spaces, right now, you can also start negotiating those things. And maybe they can’t give you a salary increase. But what I need from you is I need you to pay for my internet service. Because I’m not using that at home, I need to pay for my cell phone service, because I’m not using that for work. Right? I need you to provide me with the technology that I need to get these things done. Right. So even when you’re thinking about negotiating across the board, right, these right now that’s a great, it’s a great time to sort of practice on a little self-advocacy things. Even in this moment, right? Many of us started working from home, then everybody’s like, whoo, yay, we got we flatten the curve, girl, we went back to work. And now all of y’all are coming back home, right? Um, some of y’all like working from home more than you do. Like working in the office. Advocating for yourself might actually be making the case to be remote permanently, that could be advocating for your colleague, and a shameless plug. I have a tip coming out this week about advocating for yourself, if you would like to work remotely indefinitely, so please check that out. But I know shameless plug is on the same network. So how shameless can it be? But yeah, 100% 100%. So Mike, got the next question.



SPEAKER 1 39:04

Yeah, we got two questions in the, in for the community. And I want to show love to Rosado because she has been active in this chat. And I appreciate that. She said didn’t even use cardstock for it. But uh, so her question, her question is, is it naive to believe that developing a champion, a sponsor and advocate relationship is something that occurs organically? Or are there more strategic ways to secure the plug, like by advocating for yourself?



SPEAKER 3 39:39

I think both, I think what so the way it’s showing up for me is it starts off organically. And then it branches and sometimes it’s all you need to know this person, reach out to them and schedule some sort of informational interview or they’re doing a talk and you should attend the talk and kind of get familiar with their work and just you know, introduce yourself, I think both go hand in hand. And what happens is, those more intentional ones become really, really authentic organic get to know people in a different way. Right? I think that’s one of the beauties of Twitter. I love Twitter. Well, they didn’t, they didn’t do something with the stories today, but I can talk about that later. I don’t know. I just don’t get it. I don’t get it. So I, um, to be able to tweet, the people that I’m signing and papers I’m writing. And they respond, right. I’m like, you know, when I’m in grad school, I’m like, Whoa, she sets up the right. These days. I’m like, No, this is what you should be doing. Like, this should be standard practice for anybody. Right? Um, and then over time, you know, you get some that you know them as a professional, but then you get to know them more personally. And you realize, you know, they like Ochio suit, and they like, chillin and watching Netflix too. And then before you know it, you’re getting plugged for different opportunities, across anyone, anywhere, it could be, you know, professional, personal, I want you to join this team. On I’m thinking about writing this book. Do you know anybody that does braids, right? It can literally be anything. So I think they go hand in hand.



SPEAKER 2 41:21

Yeah, I would agree. And I also think that sometimes you start with one and end up with the other, right? Like you said before, right? You might have something that’s really completely organic, and it turns into a strategic relationship, and still has its organic parts. And then you have things that were very, very strategic. And then you like Dr. Bean said, you get to know more about them. And it’s like, oh, like, we are actually, you know, we are actually friends like in my head, because we, we actually do some of the same things, or it is a mentor, or whatever the case, you guys become actual friends, while still maintaining that mentorship relationship, those things happen. But I think they I think both of those typically exists. And that mentor advocates sponsor relationship. It’s just, they show up at different times throughout it. Yeah.



SPEAKER 1 42:14

Yeah. I mean, I think the bottom line is, is that people are more accessible today than they ever have been before. And like me, like, like, Dr. B, you mentioned, hopping on Twitter, and talking to two people that you’re quoting, like, I was reading a book called cutting school by Nollie way, rooks who I love, and I started, like joining conversations with her on Twitter. And we started going back and forth on Twitter. And I’m like, wait a minute, am I talking another way? This is dope. Like, you know, fire? Like, yes, that book helped shape some paradigms. So read that book. But yeah, I mean, like, people are accessible. You can catch people through LinkedIn, Instagram, Twitter, like, you can catch them. So I got like.



SPEAKER 3 43:05

Engagement, they’re looking for that kind of engagement. You’d be surprised. Cuz a lot. I mean, we write all these dissertations and all this stuff, you know, rarely do people go read this. Right? We like to nerd out, okay. But certainly, like those folks.



SPEAKER 2 43:25

And it’s so interesting how, like, you, you engage in that, right? Like, cuz like, sometimes it may be just uniquely, I’m tweeting on Twitter, because I’m so excited about this book. And that was just real organic, and boom, now you’re having this relationship. Next thing, you know, that could be one of your mentor that you actually reached out now. Because, you know, she started engaged with dialogue with you, you guys might have an informational meeting, and boom, you hit it off something organic, right. But you could also do it very strategically, right? Like me, not saying that this person is in any way shape, or form a mentor or sponsor or coach with myself, this just be real. But like me, I go online, I was tweeting, I was doing motivational Monday’s, I tweeted one out about Swiss beats, who’s been retweeting me and saying something right, like, okay, that could be an end if I was really trying to get Swiss beats on my team, right? Like, you know, but it was also strategic on my part that was part of my business plan strategy was to tag these people to then gain, you know, more, more engagement with my post and to potentially even be seen by them. Boom that was a strategy that could potentially turn into something or again, right. So that’s how I see both of those things happening. They just, it just sort of depends. But it usually just they flow works well together. Do I think you’re more than likely going to find a sponsorship situation, organically more than likely not just like, living your everyday life, right? There is something that you need to do to be able to solidify that relationship and to establish it. So that that’s where Like, you need to be a little bit more strategic, right? If you’re going to ask somebody to be your mentor, what do you want mentorship? Or what do you actually ask him? Right? How much of a time commitment are you looking for? Right? Like, you need to know some of those things. I think they just play into each other quite well and can’t be separated.



SPEAKER 2 45:16

Yeah, absolutely.



SPEAKER 1 45:18

Organic also means something different now, to know, because of the way the internet works, it means like, I will tell you, I organically got the job I have now. But if, if you think there wasn’t a strategy, I look, I targeted this job, like, I knew I had, I had a conversation and organic conversation through a connection of a friend. And I said, yo, this is dope, the work that they’re doing is really dope, I’m going to stay connected with these people. So I connected with somebody who I work with every day now who I love working with, connected with her on Twitter, and then hit that bell, so that I was notified when she tweeted, so that I could keep engaging. And pretty soon, she was looking at my work and was like, wait a minute, we need to talk. Right? So like mentorship, job search, all that organic means something different with the internet. Right? So I think that’s, that’s what they mean, when they say it’s one of the same strategy and organic. Absolutely, yeah.



SPEAKER 2 46:19

Yeah. So we got another question in the chat here from okay. And they said, Can you map the concept of self-advocacy into a mental health self-care framework, particularly in the context of black and brown communities?



SPEAKER 3 46:36

That’s the list. Okay. So I am not a mental health professional, there are people with degrees in debt to help you with that, right. But from my perspective, the conversations that I’ve had, and the practice that I do, I can answer from that perspective, so I’m cutting time carving out time for you. That’s self-advocacy. I’m saying no, simply, no, I can’t do it. That’s self-advocacy, right. And that’s the way to protect the boundaries that you create for yourself. Like, like, I saw, even thinking back to this mentorship relationship is not just one, it’s a two way street. So just as much as you’re receiving mentorship, you’re it’s a cyclical relationship, there’s something that you provided is providing us insight. There’s feedback, right? Like, if you’re just going and taking and taking and taking this, this is not a proper mentorship relationship. That’s also come what’s important, there’s also comes with creating boundaries in that. And so those boundaries are meant to help protect our mental health efforts help to promote self-care help to keep you keep you within realistic means and violence. So you’re not going and finding, I think back to this perfectionism conversation, and how we often like to be all over the place, like we see one person doing this one, go do that, see another person do something else want to add that to our list. And really, this, we’re not really interested in any of that. So in a mental health frame, those boundaries, help keep your advocacy on things that are truly important, need to wake up, and not taking into account what everybody else has going on. So that’s how I how I would say that, and I’m thinking about advising meetings I’ve had with students, and that’s what I would tell students, too, is how much of this is you? And how much of this is outside of what you originally set out?



SPEAKER 2 48:39

Yeah, that is, that is really good. You know, I love sort of just figuring out that boundary situation too. And I don’t think we realize how much how much boundaries play an important part in our mental health. Right? saying, No, I’m not going to let something affect me, or no, I’m not going to take that on because I’m not going to overload myself, whatever the case may be, that’s still that’s protecting yourself, that’s advocating for you. And that’s also you know, making sure that your mental health and self-care is intact. You know, when it when it when I look at it in these corporate spaces, sometimes it’s you know, it’s making sure that you have what you need to be successful. And in sometimes when you don’t have what you need, and you feel like you can’t speak up, that makes you feel miserable, right? That’s why you pay coming into work. That’s why you’re dreading these Mondays. That’s why your whatever the case may be, and so like, I’ll give you an example like I was working at a company and they were just they were they had me all over the place doing too much 1511 projects this then the other I was stressed the hell out. All right. And so eventually I had to, I thought my boss down I was like, okay, so look, some of this has to stop. I can’t keep up with all of this. Like, this is just not going to work for me. Right. And it was it was about at that point, it was about protecting myself because I had already started into this like, really dark spiral of like, I can’t get anything completed, I’m ruining everything because it was I was juggling so much, right? And so now I’m sitting here questioning myself, my abilities, all these things when in reality it was I needed to speak up and say that I could not take on all these things that you were putting onto my plate. Right? And, you know, once I had that conversation with her, she completely understood and we shifted some things and then things felt much well from that point on. Right. So I think, you know, self-advocacy in and of itself, I think is part of self-care. And right,



SPEAKER 3 50:40

I agree, right?



SPEAKER 2 50:40

Like, you’re not caring for yourself, if you’re not speaking up for what you need. And sometimes that self-advocacy could literally be you advocating to yourself, right? Me, I sit here and I work and work and work. And sometimes I just have to tell myself, Chris didn’t know, you deserve time to sit and rest and chill. That’s what you’re going to do. That’s what you should do. Because otherwise you’re doing everybody else a disservice as well. Right? So I am self. I think that advocacy doesn’t just extend beyond us. It’s also sometimes within us that we need to do that some of that advocating.



SPEAKER 3 50:53

And I think that’s absolutely I think this self-advocacy is self-care, I think is and I often rest is radical, right? Like, like to say I’m going to stop and pause is radical in it. So I think sometimes we think it needs to look a certain way. Like I got to go get 15 bath bombs. And you know, I got to go do a scrub, I got to get a massage. I got to, you know, like, if that’s your thing, do that. But literally a pause, a stop, I deserve a break is radical, as much as we can practice that. I think the more comfortable we’ll be and consistently advocating for ourselves, regardless of how, what the situation may be, from our own health to our professional lives to our academic labs.



SPEAKER 1 52:08

Yeah. I mean, listen, there are spaces on the internet that are demonizing rest, and that are demonizing fun. Like I, I, you know, you know, I think Tik Tok is an interesting place just because of all the potential that it has. But it can be really toxic, toxic, and there’s a lot of entrepreneurs on tik tok. And a lot of a lot of employers are like, don’t go get that PS five. And I’m like, What if they need a PS five to make you more money? Like, like, what are you? Who are you to tell them what to do between the hours of eight o’clock at lay? Like, what did you know? So whatever, if its writing poems, if it is playing video games, if it’s watching Netflix, like find your show that you love, and when it’s time to stop working, stop working. You know, the other thing that I just want to add to this real quick is like, I think I think I call this the work, the work that it takes to get the work. There is a lot of stuff that we’re talking about that happens outside of your job, engaging with professionals, online, all this stuff. There, there is a in keeping with mental health and saying no, there’s the I watch this happen to people, when they first get like get out there, they start getting on Twitter, they start getting on LinkedIn, they’re posting content, and everybody starts dming. You and they’re like, Yo, I want to pick your brain. Yo, let’s have a virtual coffee. And traces faces. Exactly. Because you have to know when to say no to those because a lot of times they’re a waste of your time. A lot of time.



SPEAKER 2 53:31

Yeah. And I’m bad as hell at that. That is the curse because like when you’re in the cyber professionals, you want to help people, right, right? When people are really like, hey, I need help. You’re like, we’re just so used to giving time that it just happened, like, Okay, great. Put it on my calendar, when you get there. And they’re like, how can I replicate your business? And I’m like, Yeah.



SPEAKER 3 54:03

Which, you know, those moments happen, right? I’ve definitely had a name drop here. And, uh, you know, and I’m like, How do I know you? Yeah. Right. Right. So, you know, those moments happen. But I think it’s really goes back to just picking essentially picking your battles, right. Like, do I want to continue with this? Or am I going to cut it off? Because I don’t have the energy?



SPEAKER 1 54:30

Right? Yeah. Learn to say no, that’s huge. That’s huge.



SPEAKER 2 54:33

Yeah. 100%. So, we eat its 8:54 times flown by. But, but I think there’s a question in here that I really would love to hear the answer to. So do you mind do you mind if I pull that one out?



SPEAKER 1 54:50

Yeah. Do it. Do it, do it.



SPEAKER 2 54:51

Okay. So the question I want to ask real quick is like what was the first time or maybe even just the most prominent time you remember having to You advocate for yourself.



SPEAKER 3 55:03

So I’m the oldest of six siblings. So you probably had to do it. But no, most recently. I can. Oh. So when I was a doctoral fellow, this is about summer funding. So for those listening, sometimes, when you’re in a doc program, you get funding for the academic year only. So for summer semesters, you either you secured some funding, somehow they hired you, you know, something works out. So it was me and four other doctoral fellows, all white women. I’m the only black male. And everyone got a summer assignment. Everybody. I had mentioned summer assignments. Well, before everyone, like I’m super pre emptive. I probably mentioned it in February, so like, way, way early. And, you know, the semester goes on the department chairs, like, No, thank you for sending us and we’ll you know, we’ll follow back up all this April gets there, and I’m like, nerdy hurry thing. Go to this meeting. All four of the other doc fellows got assignments, I had nothing. I’m like, I spoke up first, also based my teaching evaluations based on my productivity in this department, based on these international conference presentations that I’ve been doing, why did I not get an assignment? So I raised the issue. And I, before I raised the issue, I spoke with someone who was a doctor. And he said, don’t I wouldn’t rock the boat, you know, this funding’s. Kind of short, you know, like, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t raise the issue I got, you know, just taking you know, sometimes that’s just the type of stuff that we have to deal with, right, like just real just depth sit down trading. Now you get Chris knows me, that’s not going. He’s not, that’s not going to do nothing for me, right? Like that? No. So I raised the issue with both the department here and I had an assignment. It was awesome that I was teaching and working on research out of the dean’s office, they found me to do this work. And had I listened to that person that I talked to, I would not have gotten any assignment at all, I would have just taken all of these other people who are not work don’t have to work nearly as hard as I do. Got assignments, one of them. So in order to be a doctor, you have to be making progress on your dissertation research. I was teaching my consulting business starting before I finished, I was presenting at conferences, I was focusing things I was doing all that I was basically a full time faculty member. And I didn’t get nothing. This person, got an online class, got the chill to teach for all summer. I wasn’t having it. So in that meeting, I came with receipts, as Kristen talked about earlier, I came with the receipts, like, here’s what I’ve done in this semester alone. Here’s, here’s what I’ve done here. I’m to Mike’s point, I need this, I have a specific list of what I need. Right. I also talked to my mentor who came to the meeting with me. So I’m like, so she’s like, I He’s my doc fellow. We need help, we need the help. I don’t understand why he didn’t get an assignment. I’m sitting there. Like, here’s all the stuff I’ve done. Here’s the email I sent you before everybody else asking what’s up. And so I ended up getting what I needed. But you know, I don’t really play those games. So, but my point is, had you had I listened to this person, I would have just been out here for four months, you know, not having making any progress towards my dissertation work. So I could graduate on time, but like I had this all mapped out, I’m trying. Not having that summer off would have really helped me up. So that’s the most recent example that I can think of. And sometimes you’ll find that you’ll find people that are like, don’t rock the boat. You know, don’t draw too much attention to yourself. I am not that person. I emailed the dean and said things are extortion, right like so I’m that I’m that person on campus. And to that point, college students have the privilege to do a lot of that you can rock the boat and email all these people work for you. So emailing, asking for what you need any spaces. You know, could I maybe I could have changed, you know, the sometimes my emails be a little spicy. I put it that way. I don’t was reading them, but sometimes, you know, they’d be what they are, right? Um, if I if I was to change anything, perhaps an email but the outcome I got what I needed.



SPEAKER 1 1:00:12

An example. I personally feel like if it’s something that that has been ignored that you brought up, I, you know, I don’t feel like you were wrong for a spicy email or two, I think spicy emails, what was needed to get the job done. Right. But the one thing you knew, before you sent that spicy email, what the potential applications were right before maybe the good ones, maybe the bad ones, but okay, at the end of the day, I’m okay with all of those because you go to give me what I need, or I’m going to go elsewhere to get what I need.



SPEAKER 2 1:00:48

Right? Look, I can’t that’s self-advocacy focus.



SPEAKER 1 1:00:58

I see emails and fire when you when you perform, when you’ve done.



SPEAKER 3 1:01:02

Like, I’m doing this work, like, tell me and also I’m reflective. So if I’m not, if I miss something, please let me know. Yeah, you didn’t do that. I you know, I’m grown. I can handle it. Like if I really didn’t do something. Tell me. So I know what the actual reasons are. Why I didn’t get an assignment. But just this oversight. They didn’t reach out at all. And that’s fine. I reached out I got ignored. That’s not all. That’s not Oh,



SPEAKER 1 1:01:28

Look, I tell I tell early teachers, you need to treat these school districts like LeBron James. Tracy’s NBA teams, look at them and be like, Look, I’m the best of this building. And I will leave it



SPEAKER 3 1:01:39

Yeah.



SPEAKER 1 1:01:41

Like, I’m only here for a year, and don’t think I’m going to, I’m not going to commit to you, if you’re not going to commit to me, like spicy is fine when you are performing.



SPEAKER 3 1:01:51

Absolutely.



SPEAKER 1 1:01:52

That’s it. That’s it. Like, I don’t tell people to show up, and always do their best and outperform their white peers, I don’t care about what your wife is doing. What I want you to do is do your best and always provide what you can. So then you can advocate for yourself appropriately, right? You if you slacking off. And that’s something that is, is apparent, no one’s going to take you serious when you try to advocate for yourself. But if you are somebody who does the work and is known for doing the work, when you speak up, people are just going to have to listen, or they know you’re able to take your talents elsewhere. Right. And that’s just what it is so, so look, we can continue forever. 902. So, you know, I really, really, really want to thank you, Dr. D, for coming back on. I know you are a long-time friend of the living corporate network, and now you are a contributing writer, I am going to be tapping on the keys. So y’all better be ready for some of these articles that are coming out. So with that, we’re going to go ahead and sort of wrap this up here. Dr. B, where can people find you? Where can they connect with you to hear some of this spiciness a little bit more?



SPEAKER 3 1:03:05

So I’m on LinkedIn live on it third, and I’m on Twitter at doctors see the eye is on the third. So I couldn’t take CB three that handles our tickets so I have I but those are the two platforms that I use the most. Use in my Twitter is all over so you’ll see me going about going in about education stuff to watch on Netflix to you know, I talked about everything. My Twitter is what it is for everything I’m not you know, I try to be a human everywhere I may fit right like I often think people try to separate but you can find me on those two spaces. And I also have discover without barriers. My organization has a Twitter page that links from my, my personal Twitter and no barriers 19.



SPEAKER 3 1:03:58

Nice. Y’all go follow up man. I can personally attest he is hilarious. So please. And Mike, where can people follow you my friend?



SPEAKER 1 1:04:09

Find me LinkedIn. Find me on Twitter, not twitter at just spike gates. I’m on LinkedIn all the time. Like LinkedIn is sometimes better than email to get ahold of me. It’s just faster. You know, but yeah.



SPEAKER 3 1:04:29

Perfect. And you guys can find me at the link. I just put in the chat my LinkedIn there. You can also find me on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, at lay field resume. So that’s la YFL de Arte de su MP. So we want to thank you all for joining us, Mike, my friend. This is the last episode of this season. We are even the people until January. It is crazy. So we’re going to take a little break. So make sure you sign up follow live in corporate on crowd cast. So that way you can get a notification when we pick back up. The next show is going to be January 12 2021. Maybe we can get up out of this nasty 2020 and get a little bit better than 2021. But we’re going to kick it off with professional curiosity, right? What does it mean to always be asking questions and learning? Right? So that’s what we’re going to talk about January 12 2021. And you all are lucky because you have you meet and Mike when we get back so it’s my friend. Back to get back. Yeah. So we want to thank the Dream Team. Look, we want to thank you all for joining us for this last episode. Make sure to join us back on January. But we really appreciate you rocking with us this initial season. Make sure to tell your friends send them the link Tell him to sign up bug him again. January 11. Tell him again we want to see y’all here. So you know any organizations you and tell them about it too? We want to we want as many people getting this info as we possibly can. Absolutely. Mike got anything for the people?



SPEAKER 1 1:06:10

Man Look, I’m just so I’m so thankful for this journey that we’ve been on for this first season. Thank you, Dr. B for coming on dropping major knowledge like



SPEAKER 3 1:06:19

Thank you both for having me.



SPEAKER 1 & 2 1:06:21

Yeah. Yeah.



SPEAKER 2 1:06:24

People we are out make sure you follow living corporate at living corporate underscore pod, I believe. Is that is that the correct one Mike I can’t remember



SPEAKER 1 1:06:31

Yeah.



SPEAKER 2 1:06:32

Living corporate pod and living corporate pod, I believe on Twitter, but make sure you follow us and we will be back at your January talk. Yep.



SPEAKER 1 1:06:42

Cool. See ya.



SPEAKER 2 1:06:43

Thanks. Bye.

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