The Access Point hosts Mike and Brandon jump into a discussion themed around effective documentation on the second show of 2021! The Access Point is a weekly webinar preparing Black and brown college students for the workforce. If you’re looking to jump-start your career, this is content you want to follow. Want to catch the next Access Point? Click here to check our schedule and sign up!

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SPEAKER 1 0:11

All right, we live Welcome to the access point.

SPEAKER 2 0:13

Oh, Welcome. Welcome.

SPEAKER 1 0:15

Mike here,

SPEAKER 2 0:17

Berman Gordon.

SPEAKER 1 0:18

Yeah, we’re

SPEAKER 2 0:18

Excited to, to jump into this one. I mean, this one is going to be an exciting one. One that last week Tristan was super excited about he was jealous of us. Because we got the hostess when he said it on the air. And I caught it. We got a recording. So before we jump in, let’s do our introductions. Let’s get that out of the way. You got the first intro brand?

SPEAKER 1 0:42

Yes, sir. Welcome to the live in corporate one live in corporate is a writing and podcasting platform dedicated to exploring and celebrating underprivileged identities in corporate America just as yourself. We are early to mid-career consultants who came together based on shared ideas, I have a frank conversation about the ways we exist to succeed in corporate spaces. As a collective, we represent a boss special beliefs, cultures and ideas. And we know that our differences have shaped our perspectives and experiences in corporate America. We want to engage with the hurt and have my conversations. Live incorporates for eating blind to everyone who wants to have these conversations with us and push the needle forward, how we can recreate and sustain spaces through inclusiveness. Yeah.

SPEAKER 2 1:25

Now, if you don’t know, live in corporate is a whole network out here, like with a ton of content. And so this particular show, is just one of the shows on the living corporate network. It is called the access point. And this is our weekly web show. That’s right, it happens every week, where we bring you all the real talk, like the real is going to reveal to you, yeah, it’s going to help you prepare for the workforce. And, you know, I think it’s important for us to say cuz like, like, we say it every week, twice. This content is for everyone. But we are specifically talking about black and brown folks, and preparing Black and Brown students for the future of work. So you know, normally we have incredible guests that come on this show, but for the first couple of weeks, you just got your host, you just hanging out with us. And we’ll have some guests on next week. So before we jump into our conversation, just take some time, what’s up, Chandra? Thank you for hopping in. Get your people over here, right, share the show, share it on Twitter, share it on Facebook, LinkedIn, text, somebody, get them over here, and let them know that we’re having this this awesome show. So let’s jump into the topic

SPEAKER 1 2:40

Is the topic, the topic, the topic? Okay, so the topic we have this week, is I just had it? Well, it’s called effective documentation. Okay, so not so. So that means everything. Everything that you do in the corporate workforce needs to be documented. I mean, of course, for legal, legal, logistics and legal standpoint, Yes, she does document everything. But as black and brown individuals, we want to make sure we want to ensure that you are effectively covering your ass. I would love to say that. And the reason why is and I can also lead to this, we as black and brown individuals have been in experiences where we had to use the CIA method. And what we learned is our birth really doesn’t hold them with strength. I mean, it’s sad very sad to say our word doesn’t hold that much strength in the workforce. So we have to do is we have to provide documentation to show people that hey, this is what I’ve done this is what I’ve been doing these are the things that people have said about me is the things that people have said about my work and I need to show this to you in documented form. And I’m pretty sure you have anecdotes of these kinds of kinds of stories as well.

SPEAKER 2 4:02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER 1 4:03

I mean, like when I you know, most of my most of my work in my professional career has been in education and so the most helpful thing somebody told me when I got an education was they were like document everything keep everything if you have a phone call record the phone call like write down the don’t like record them without like write down the,

SPEAKER 2 4:29

Certain jurisdiction certain states you can record it

SPEAKER 1 4:31

Without their notice. Yeah, yeah. Um, I don’t I don’t even I don’t even know what the laws are in Texas where I live but um, but I know like in Oregon, if you live in Oregon, you can record away right yeah, so I recommend like for zoom calls, you know, I even today you know, now what I have zoom calls out the first thing I say, hey, do you mind if we record this right? So I you know, I don’t want to leave it up to question and, and particularly I had a situation where am I My first year teaching, I had a parent who called me and he, you know, I was teaching speech. And his daughter who was an elite soccer player really good. Like she used to travel all over, like she’s on this very elite, this great travels and right, was being recruited by, you know, universities a sophomore in high school, elite. And he, she’s like, Hey, I’m not going to have my speech ready, because I have soccer. And I’m like, Oh, I’m sorry, for like, that, like, the due date is the due date doesn’t change to her. Yeah. And so, you know, she looks sad, but you know, and then suddenly, you know, I get a call from her from her father. And he’s like, Listen, like, if you’re not going to change the due date for her, then she’s going to she’s just going to have to be sick tomorrow. And I was like, do what you got to do, man, you do to get it. I was like, just make sure that you email me that she’s going to be sick tomorrow. Like right now. And I said that because she sent me an email. Right before saying like, hey, I want to come talk to you about this. Like, I’m tired from soccer, right? So I was able to show my principal, both emails, I’m tired from soccer. And then oh, my daughter’s sick. Right? And they call they called everybody in there. And she was like, No, I’m not sick. My dad was trying to write it. So it covered me from, you know, I was working in private school and in private schools, parents, all that kind of stuff. Right? So it covered me that that’s the earliest situation I can remember in my professional career. But at this time, what about what about you what kind of situations if you’ve been

SPEAKER 2 6:36

Amazing, just early in my career, get my idea stolen? Oh, yeah. And I was working for this company called palm JCA. So I’ll work with JCA and rosacea to work on JCI. And what I’ve what I’ve learned was just shooting ideas out just in the wind, and people getting a hold in the hold of and then taking 100% credit for it. And that was the best thing, I realized that I have to write everything down documented. And being meetings where managers and people to sort of the higher ups could actually hear my ideas. And they won’t be stuck, they won’t pull them out other people that are looking for credit. It was it was on a project, it was on a big project in downtown Houston, I’m doing HDR controls, I’ll figure out a way to make this the system run more efficiently. And just shooting ideas out of the way it was one of them, one of the project managers took the idea and ran with it. And I was just lifting the wind because I didn’t know what he’s talking say this is mine was mine. And it was just a he said she said I couldn’t win because he had more experience than me was working with. So what they have learned was I’m writing everything down, write everything down. And not just on a notepad, but actually, in emails or some way of tracking. And let people know your ideas. Because when other people get it, they may read it and take it as their own. And you are left out. And that’s why there’s things called patents. Pretty much a patent is the ultimate see why. Because if you don’t have the kind of information in a bike distilling anybody, and then you won’t get credit for it. And yeah, then now 2021, you have credit, so you have an IP, or intellectual property of self, I’m so sorted, you can get monetary value for it. And that’s really what it is trying to protect you, which is the investment, we’ll try to take the best, which is the investment. So what are the Why? And you can think of?

SPEAKER 1 8:55

So I think there’s a couple I think, you know, I’m gonna, I’m gonna put this in the chat as well. And also Chandra, feel free to ask any questions. I changed her say she is an executive assistant. So she knows all about CIA. But really what up what I want to cover and I think we can do this, I think this will be a great way to organize our time is that so I in my mind, there’s four types of workplace documentation. And I’ll put them in the chat the first to see why. Right. And that’s like, that’s the documentation that you keep to keep yourself from getting in trouble. If somebody tries to accuse you of doing something. If they try to if they say you weren’t working when you were right, like that’s the document that’s the receipt you pull out and you’re like, I was doing what I’m supposed to do.

SPEAKER 2 9:45

So let’s uh let’s stay here. So when you say see why does that mean like keeping track of emails that they’d be like keeping other managers and people moving what you’re doing as well?

SPEAKER 1 9:56

Oh, absolutely. Like what one of the things I should do with my emails, I have a tagging system. And I’ve tagged my emails, I’m obsessive about it. So like I, you know, I tag my personal email, I tag, my work email address, and you know, they’re color coded and everything. So if somebody says, oh, like you didn’t get back to me on this, I will go pull up that folder, and pull out that email and look at that chain and say, you know what, that’s not true. I actually did get back to you on this day. At this time. You just didn’t respond, right. And I think as a black person in the workplace, that’s the most that’s the documentation that we talk about. Or that we I think we experienced the most simply because if we’re real, if we’re real about it, America is an anti-Black Country, and there’s a natural distrust of black people. That’s right. So you know, that’s the most

SPEAKER 2 10:49

One thing I’ve learned from a black engineer that was working with this bomb, maybe six years ago was he kept an email list of a big email folder of all the compliments that he received. Yep. From people that he worked with, throughout the year. So when it was time for like, I know, you get to like the salary negotiation and things like that, and performance reviews, he was able to pull those emails out and show his manager like, Hey, this is what the people have been saying these are my clients have been saying, This is what the contract is all about me throughout the entire year. So that way, when it’s tough for the wife to ever say that somebody says something negative about them, because we have documented proof. Does he say something positive? And that’s one thing I’ve done throughout my throughout my careers, I mean, I’m totally don’t i don’t work for my manager, I work for my clients. Yes, I do have a manager in charge of a breakfast. Yes, exactly. So I work for my clients, and my clients may call my boss after every project, he may email him and say, Hey, Brandon, Brandon did a great job on this project. He was tentative. He did the work he went above and beyond the scope of the project was, you know, just give me my good kudos. So when it’s time for the salary negotiations, you know, I’m able to pull up those folders in the emails and telling me Hey, this is what they said. So you can’t say I’ve been doing bad when these people have been doing good. XYZ dollars. Yeah. Yep.

SPEAKER 1 12:16

Yeah. I mean, I’m totally with that. Like, and I, you know, let’s, let’s, let’s stay with salary negotiations, right. Cuz, you know, what, one of the things I think, if we’re doing our job, right, with the access point, my hope is that you’re not a person that has to justify why you’re there every year when it’s time for performance review. So that brag folder, like Chandra put in the in the chat, it should be to get you more money not to justify you having a job, right. So yeah, like, exactly. And I, I think that, you know, I have used that, right. I’ve used, you know, parent emails, I’ve used online reviews, stuff like that, um, to even in a in a field where people say there’s no money to command more money. Right? I think so. I love the idea of a brag folder. What are the kind of documentation do you think is important for salary negotiation?

SPEAKER 2 13:11

For the salary negotiation, besides emails, I mean, the work, the work and the work to be done? So one thing that my boss forgot the technical term for, right? I think it was like you, your effective usage or something like that? I’ll never correct. Right. So, um, this, you put your out your 40 hours in, right, but it’s based on people if you’re working on a project, or if you’re using overhead hours, sheets. So he did, he showed me a printout of everything, every all the hours of products that I was on for the year, and then versus how much overhead I was using. And so his mission was, if you’re charging a minimum 78% of your money towards the projects, as opposed to overhead, you’re considered a good worker, I was using 93%. And the other 7% was like, holiday pay, and holiday pay in Alaska, like vacation time. So effectively, I don’t I was going above and beyond. But they showed him that I’m spending that his own money, but I’m spending the clients’ money. I’m also using that money. Well, because I was I’m still around doing my work. So if you can find a way to show how much overhead you’re using versus how much of the other class that you’re using, you know, if you’re in that kind of field, the show that hey, I’m being used, I’m being much utilized in your company. I must spend the use of money. You know, so I forgot the technical term for I want to say it’s like effective usage or something like that. But I’m not spending my company’s money. I’m spending some money, right. So yeah, other metrics. Like if you can find my SIG link, link Then be a great example, if you can get people to write reviews for you on LinkedIn, whatever field that you’re in and say, Hey, this a, Brandon did a good job on this, Mike did a good job on this. And you can show over top. And if they can go into the future as well, you can show over time that you have a good report and a good track history. Nobody has nothing else to say, but good things about you, right? Want to hire, or want to keep you at your current position or keep you in better position.

SPEAKER 1 15:29


SPEAKER 2 15:30

Mike, so what else? Would you feel that you would also need to suffer selling negotiations?

SPEAKER 1 15:35

Yeah, man, I think I think like part of this goes with number two, protecting your IP as well. And I love that you brought up LinkedIn, because what one of the ways that I have done this, with salary negotiations has been to use the entire internet space. Right? So if you get featured in some magazine, right, let’s say you get a Forbes feature, right? Um, as a matter of fact, so I, when I got my first Forbes feature, I put it in slack. It and I’m sure there are people that was like, Oh, he’s arrogant. But I shared it in slack. Because number one, I was happy about being informed. But number two, I needed them to know, when it comes down to salary negotiation. I’m not like the rest of these people up in here. Right? Like I’m featured in Forbes, where are they at? Right? And when, you know, when it when it came around to that, and we started talking about new positions and new, new stuff, they, you know, they looked at me and they said, Okay, well, well, like, what, what separates you? And I said, Well, let me pull out this Forbes, let me pull out this Austin American statesman, let me put you know, I started pulling out printouts of these places where I had been featured. Right. And, and all of a sudden the conversation was different. You know, so I think it’s also seeking opportunities, like what work? Can you do outside of your job disconnected, right? That proves your value to the greater like the world. So I have two TED Talks, right? That for me, that’s a salary negotiation tool. And it’s his last week as well. Like, yes, like, Ted is cool. Like the moment is cool, right? Like going up on the stage. You know, people clapping for you, when you but that is not that I could care less about that. I’ve done that enough in my life. I don’t care. I want the YouTube video. Because I want that receipt. I want when it comes time to somebody exactly. I want views I want. And so now I can put it in front of somebody and say this talk has 36,000 views. Right? Which means that it that means something community. So as long as I’m working, I will have those for salary negotiations. But also it’s my IP. Right?

SPEAKER 2 17:49

So I do the same thing. But I can say from LinkedIn, Boston for Twitter, right? So. So if you if you follow me on ghost signal, shameless plug, by the way on Twitter, so I can search my name. And somebody said on Twitter, like a couple of weeks ago that if you search your Twitter name, see how many articles are posted using your tweets. So I did that. I knew I was posted on the source magazine. I was on Washington Post Yahoo News. A see out magazine, it’s kind of weird, but okay, bro Bible, just local magazines. I’m rolling out. So I’ve been on a few, a few major publications just on the social atmosphere. But I mean, just like you said, my view show people like hey, look at me. This is what I do. Yep. What I do when people watch me, people watch me. The famous who says I people watch me and a lot. Yeah, if you can, if you can get people to watch you can’t live. It can show you what I’m showing you back.

SPEAKER 1 18:55

Yeah, I mean, I think I think that like the game of salary negotiation and game have grown on social media is the game of attention. That’s all it is always ever been. Right? If Yeah, if you can drive attention to your company’s name and their mission, then that money’s gonna follow, right. Like, you know, I mean, I think the other thing is podcasts. Right? So the other thing I would say was the documentation. I wanted a way to claim my IP and capture my, like a running record of my ideas. But also, I wanted my network to speak out loud. So part of the reason why I started my podcast, schoolish podcast is so when I have guests like near al, who’s one of the world leaders in, in behavioural science, who means like his, his name, ne education world, it really everywhere, just put it this way. He’s an angel investor. And here’s the company. He’s invested in Eventbrite, Canvas. Anchor the podcasting platform Cahoots like all in all of his investments hit, you know, so like, being able to have a conversation with him. On my podcasts and have that video as evidence. Oh, yeah, I’m using that I’m using whenever somebody, you know, again, if you’re listening like for our audience like, y’all are not going to be in the position where you’re going to have to justify why you’re there. It’s all about getting extra getting more, give more.

SPEAKER 2 20:20

Yeah. Yes. Yes, sir. So he so he said protecting your IP, right? Yep. Okay. So when it comes, you don’t know you’re IP, intellectual properties, whatever you could use, you’re using your brain. So what I’ve learned is, you may know about how to protect it, but I’m saying so my experience, when you start it off, like these, I work for the engineering field. So whatever ideas or tools or new inventions, you come up with your IP, because finally companies IPS, yeah, unless you have, unless you have unless you have a patent already going in any new software, any new idea, a new technology that you that you use, the company can claim you, most companies do sign off and say, anything that you create, while you’re working for us belongs to us up until I worked with some companies they say a year some companies say five years, it all depends on whatever contract that you signed, you can also negotiate if you can keep it out. But most likely they won’t. They won’t get away from it. They’ll say, hey, you work for me. Anything to create a user is technically mine, or the companies or whatever. So when I say all that to say this, right? When it comes to your IP, right, how, how hard is it? Number one? And number two, what steps do you need to take to make sure that it’s yours? Yeah.

SPEAKER 1 21:51

Yeah. So I think the first one, I’ll tell you what I do, I have a secret blog that nobody has access to. And the reason why I pay for the domain, and I won’t tell you what it is, because the secret, yeah, but I put every single thing I create on that blog. Because for example, let’s say you want to write a book, right? And you start taking stuff that you posted only on LinkedIn. Right? LinkedIn, theoretically, because of the terms and agreements, if that book blows up, theoretically, LinkedIn could come in and say, No, no, that belongs to us. And they could claim parts of the book that you wrote, because you’re using posts, even though as your posts, even though you might have my tweets, or my thoughts, or these are my thoughts, it doesn’t matter, unless you have it unless it comes from a place of ownership. Right. So for me, like before I post on LinkedIn, I’ll write the post on this blog. And then I’ll post it on LinkedIn. And I make sure that that timestamp, right, so and I know it is an extra step. And it does sound crazy. But yeah. Is it gonna take some, you know, like, I think it’s just making sure that you have an original source, that that’s not for public consumption. That book that belongs to you. Like, I have a friend who is he writes screenplays, and he does the poor man’s copyright where he, whenever he produces something, he just mails it to himself. So even like pages in his notebook that he turns into a screenplay, before he talks to any producer, any director, he literally like just rips the note. Like, he’ll type them out, printed out, and they will put the printed copy next to the original copy and mail it to himself, and leave it sealed. So if there’s ever any dispute, he’s got his IP. The other thing I think you can do to protect your IP is be really big and bold, about like, I mean, honestly, like to be really self-promoting, like so that, like, if you have an idea, and you put it out there. Um, the truth is, is that unless you’re working for a big company, like so, like what you mentioned, about how big companies like they would like if you work for Apple, and you create something to Apple, yes, Apple you better because you ain’t Wouldn’t that you know, when you lose that fight, the day you start, but if you if you’re working at a start-up, or let’s say that’s not the nature of your job, let’s say you work in a school or you, you know, you work in consulting, or you’re a real estate agent, you come up with some idea. Generally speaking, most people are not going to do anything about it. But you could share that idea far and wide. And most people will not do anything about it. Right, just because most people just they just don’t have they only they don’t have the knowledge to know how, or they just like really, they just, they just will forget to do it. Right? The is like the Gary Vaynerchuk method, if you will, but like if you’re big loud and fast enough, and you’re consistent enough with that message, enough people will know that that idea or that message is yours. Yeah, like I think like you’re seeing this on tik tok. Well, people will create these dances. And then they’re like, I’m the real creator of this dancer. Nobody’s giving me credit. Well, you didn’t protect your IP. You just put it on tik tok. So one thing, one thing

SPEAKER 2 25:17

Is, Oh, this one guy with the money resign he. He made sure he protected his IP and got his stuff. Kakori

SPEAKER 1 25:26

Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah. He said, well. He said as soon as he said as soon as he saw, sweetie retweeted. He said he called lawyers. It was like, I want to mark every part of his little dance. And the original video and he making money now.

SPEAKER 2 25:44

Yeah, he. I don’t know how he’s doing it in the in the pandemic, going to doing tours and clubs? Yeah. And dancing. Okay, that’s a whole different story. Oh, yeah. But, but he is making an effective business out of just a one simple slogan, we take P and making money off of it as really what the goal is, no matter what you do, or how you do it. Have an idea. Go to the go to the proper channels to make sure that it is legally yours. And then go on make your money off. Yeah, yeah. Cuz again,

SPEAKER 1 26:18

Cuz that dude worked at a Honda dealership. So he could have come in if he didn’t call those lawyers sooner. Honda could have came in and say, you know, what? Were the money reserved? But yeah, they could have ran an international campaign by where the money was? No, but no, no, no more, not less.

SPEAKER 2 26:36

That’s right. So speaking of speaking of payments, you’re talking about the last talk, which I know we it was a bunch of ideas that we threw up. And we threw out, we talked about LinkedIn, we talked about the emails and thinking things of the sort. So one thing I need to start doing personally is have people go to my LinkedIn leave comments. So just in case, if I do decide to get you out to more and better bigger opportunities, that I have a track record of people give me good kudos. People can see that, hey, this guy is really doing a great job. Now, I don’t know. I don’t you may you may know about more about this than LinkedIn than I do. But how effective is the comments in the comment section? But

SPEAKER 1 27:21

The recommendation,

SPEAKER 2 27:22

The recommendation endorsement section of like, oh,

SPEAKER 1 27:25

Man, massive. And I’ll tell I’ll tell you some people, a lot of people just, you know, probably one of the people that I think is actually done, maybe the best job I’ve seen a getting recommendations. And this is this, this is partially by the nature of his job, but I got a shout out. Tristan, right, Tristan lay field, if you go to Chris’s LinkedIn profile right now, he got the recommendation section on lock. Right. But you know, I have I have a couple and what I did and what I do for the recommendations I’ve gotten, so I’ve gotten every time somebody recommends you on LinkedIn, you will get a notification that says, hey, do you want to prove the recommendation? I own for me personally, just because I, I don’t really, education doesn’t always feel like corporate America, but because I work in education. And now you know, now I work, I work in it from a different angle. I’m not in a school anymore, but I only use the recommendations that have the most impact on my career. So for example, if you look at my LinkedIn recommendations section, there is a recommendation that this is how it ends, I’m going to read it. It says if you want to understand what the future of education looks like, and need a juggernaut, who can kick-start an alternate education revolution in your district school organization? Mike, eh, should be the first person that you call, right? That, like that line, right there, has actually gotten me a job. Like, literally, I showed up in an interview, and they were like, this is what somebody said about you. You don’t need to justify yourself. We know you’re awesome, right? That that that that one, right. So I think the recommendation section is powerful. If your job is a job where you’re working, if it’s client facing, if you’re consulting, if you’re an account manager, if it’s customer service base, every single time you close out an interaction, you should just ask for the for the LinkedIn recommendation every time and like let’s say you ask 100 people a year and you have a 10% conversion rate. That’s normally 10 more recommendations and most people have on their LinkedIn profile.

SPEAKER 2 29:50

Bags. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So we see ya as in futures, right. We talked about keeping us Even now, what’s your emails, right? Um, go through your, your legal department, your own HR department and see what you can print off the emails and see if you can use those for other job opportunities and things like that. Because they, the company may say you can’t print off the emails is confidential information and things of the sort. So if you have the opportunity to print off emails to say about your accomplishments about what you’ve done, and you may potentially can use those emails from your own personal co-workers. So if we’re in different jobs and different job opportunities, they can be very helpful as well. But the whole point of it is to make sure that you are putting yourself in the best possible position.

SPEAKER 1 30:45


SPEAKER 2 30:47

That is really what’s really what it is. I mean, we, we also have all the roles and they can say, with ease of covering your hands. But really what it comes down to with this is I’m protecting myself, protecting my financial investment, I’m also protecting my future in a way that I there’s nothing in it, and there’s nothing wrong with it, nothing wrong with it. So it is basically just fighting, making sure you’re the best possible position to free transmit the fight for yourself, right? I mean, because if you if you don’t like nobody will, you know, and then you know, the other bounce out. The thing I cannot stress enough on access point is that you start looking for your next job, the day you start your current job. Right? I mean, because if you if you don’t like nobody will, you know, and then you know, the other bounce out. The thing I cannot stress enough on access point is that you start looking for your next job, the day you start your current job. Right. Yeah. And that’s, I think that’s what I mean, like, you’re like that, because what you did was you took a, you took a very real thing that you’re required to do in your job. Anyone know? Cuz Let’s just be real, like employers have, they have every reason to have you be a project manager, without naming you project manager. They got to pay you crazy right to get a project. Right? So

SPEAKER 1 31:32

Oh, wait, whoa. Okay. Now, that’s a very good question. Why?

SPEAKER 2 31:39

Okay, here’s what here’s what I mean by that. I don’t mean that you start a new job. And you go, you go on LinkedIn, or indeed, and you start actually a job search. What I mean by that is, the work that you do in your current job, is going to set you up for the next position. Right, and unless you decide with some people, some people do, and there’s no shame in this unless you say, I’m gonna be at this company for 20 years. Alright. But for me that I know the way I work, I start when I say looking, I mean, preparing, you start preparing for your next job, the day you start your first job, which means every assignment that you get every project that you work on, you should be documenting that journey. So that if a time comes, when you decide you want to leave, you’re not stuck. Right? And trust me, Listen, your salary. Like we’ve talked about salary negotiation, a high salary, can also be something called golden handcuffs. And it makes sure what a golden hiccup is basically, in some a lot of companies, especially where I live in Austin, Texas, they do this a lot. They pay you a salary that is exponentially higher than most other companies pay for that particular role. So that you have to you feel like you have to stay and have to put up with more and they can overwork you and all kinds of stuff. Here’s the example I’ll give you and I’m not gonna say names, but there is there there’s a school in Austin, Texas that pays educators $100,000 a year. Yet now, just think about that educators, teachers, $100,000 a year, how easy is it? Do you think it is to go from $100,000 a year back down to 59 00? Right. So like, if you work there, that’s, that’s an example of golden handcuffs. And the reason why I say the fourth type of workplace documentation needs to be concerned with the future is so you can have the key to unlock those golden handcuffs, if you want and move on, you should not have to take a pay cut, to move on from a toxic environment, you should not have to take a pay cut to move on just because you want something new, you should actually be able to take a pay raise. And so everything you do at work is setting you up for your next job. So look like I just started a new job in October. Right. And I mean, this is literally my story. I used all my receipts to where this job came looking for me. And they let me design the position. And so I you know, I was able to make a smooth, very nice transition. But you know, what I’ve been focused on in my first 90 days, how much impact can I create? And where can i document that impact? Right? Because it’s I’m not saying I’m going to leave in 90 days. I’m not saying I’m gonna leave in three. I’m not saying I’m leaving at all. But I know that the word of my current employer, the way that I’m viewed there, the latitude that I get the responsibilities that I get, that’s going to help me learn something and it’s going to help me show another company why I’m valuable enough to offer me a better position. Right.

SPEAKER 1 34:55

Now, you say something about golden handcuffs right in under this kind of topic, right? So why do companies? And then he talked about, you know, is it more of like a mental thing to where another space is different in Austin $50,000 won’t take you a long way in Austin, based on what the current the current living expenses is in Austin. So when they when they pay their salary, right, typically, you don’t see that much room for improvement as well when it comes down to pay raises and increases, right.

SPEAKER 2 35:34

So this place is crazy. Just play. Okay.

SPEAKER 1 35:37

Okay. But what I don’t want to say is the turnover rate high is, is it hard to get them to beat the position? And how is the job?

SPEAKER 2 35:47

Yeah. So generally speaking with, with, in my experience with companies that you can describe, with golden handcuffs with those types of positions, generally speaking, the turnover is not very high, because they create scarcity in order to drive the salary up like this particular this particular place, the pay scale goes from $100,000 a year to $200,000 a year to 400. And then there is, there’s really nothing above that. But you see very big leaps, right? So let’s say you’ve gotten the 400. And now you’ve adjusted your life to live at 400,000. I mean, to them, it’s like you got to stay. Cuz like, where are you going to go to get? So the other thing I’ll say, like, when I say golden handcuffs, I don’t, I don’t mean any job that pays a lot. So golden handcuffs specifically, are jobs that pay a lot of money, but you have a very vague job title. And it’s not like just by your title alone. So like, let’s like, if you’re making $200,000 a year, and your job title does not say, Chief, this or chief that or vice president of this, you don’t say like, if it doesn’t say that people are like, first of all, when you apply for other jobs. Nobody really knows your salary unless you report it to them, which you should never actually. But uh, you know, so nobody should really even know your current salary. But so when you think about that, if you have a job that has a very vague or like analogous jobs, and in tech, people love to say things like, Oh, I’m the SEO wizard. Like if you’re the SEO wizard, and you make $400,000 a year, how are you going to convince somebody to let you be the vice president of a, you know, of search engine optimization, Hey, your title is Seo wizard. Right now you’re unhappy. You have this weird job title. Nobody knows what you do. But you make a lot of money. And you can’t find yourself a way out of that company. That’s the golden handcuffs. Right? Yeah. Yeah, it’s a popular tool in tech to keep people like, what these tech billionaires figured out is they’re like, Look, if I can, if I can essentially box somebody into a role. And then and then justify by saying, Look, I’m paying you a lot of money. So you should be up at night. And you should be you should be working extra hours. And you should actually Hand me the intellectual property to anything that you create. Right. Like, that’s how they do it. Right. Like,

SPEAKER 1 38:24

Is another form of pretty much another form of slavery? Pretty

SPEAKER 2 38:27

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

SPEAKER 1 38:28

I mean, it’s like its damn near indentured servitude, right. Wow.

SPEAKER 2 38:34

I never. First of all, it is morally and ethically wrong. It just in my book, right. Off the top. Yeah. But when you when you eat. First of all, most people never heard of getting $100,000. And most people don’t touch $100,000 in a year. If you are, you’re very blessed, number one. Number two. Once they say once you’ve adjusted your lifestyle around that money, you can’t go lists. Yep, you got that card. You’ve got the house. You’ve got kids, you’ve got fields. You adjusted your entire life around that. Wow, I’ve never, I would never think about doing somebody like that.

SPEAKER 1 39:14

Yeah, well, and it’s like you said also, like you said, psychologically, like, even if you can adjust your life to where you can go back psychologically, you know how hard it is to like, take a 50% like decrease in pay. Like, I’ve never had to do that. You know,

SPEAKER 2 39:32

I haven’t even like I’ve talked to my wife plenty of times about you know, I’ve lived off of $100 in college, our freshman year, I’ve lived off 100,000 columns for two three months. Yep. I can’t do that now. My life has been adjusted to eat live a certain way, eat a certain way do certain things with my body by you know, getting massages and taking care of myself to where I can’t do that kind of stuff anymore. Just living like a Savage, I can’t do it. Yeah. And if people are actually using that to the corporation using it to their advantage,

SPEAKER 1 40:08

Yeah. And that’s why I say that’s why I say number four, that like thinking about the future, like documenting your journey, right? Like I see, like Chandra said, like, she’s in a situation right now. Look, my advice is to start document, right, start building a case for yourself. And even if it takes a year, right, I’ll tell I’ll tell you, I’ll just tell you out very transparently like the golden handcuffs, I know about the situation, because I live that situation, I was in one of those positions. And when all I did was actually you know, what, like, I was in this place for three years. But at year 1.5, I started making my plan. I started posting on LinkedIn, I started doing podcasts and Ted Talks, and I knew from doing those things, that that one day, the day is gonna come where I’m gonna leave this place, and I’m not going to go down, I’m going to go up in salary. And I’m gonna tell you what, what happened when I left, what happened, all of my co-workers started calling me out of the blue. We didn’t know we could get out of here, or we didn’t know it was possible. So the number one thing I tell my brother who’s in college, college students, young professionals, when you get that new job, especially in tech, when you get that new job in corporate America, the first thing you should start doing is thinking about what’s next. I know you’re really happy, and you’re really excited. Because you’ve always wanted to work for LinkedIn, you’ve always wanted to work for Google, or you’ve always wanted to work for KPMG or Deloitte. But like you do not ever want to get stuck. And this type of documentation that I’m talking about prevents you from getting stuck.

SPEAKER 2 41:45

That speaking of documentation, your jobs, much job title. You know, you say you said SEO was I’m the SEO was I do XYZ. If you lie about it, that’s a lie. But tweaking in such a way that because they don’t they really don’t know like, right. Now titles, right? So can you document somewhere and say, I was a project manager of desert? Project manager, I was a program specialist. How can you document it to where you won’t pigeonhole yourself into staying in one specific Lane? Yeah.

SPEAKER 1 42:16

So that’s a good question. So the, the place where I was at, and I’ll say, I’ll say this, just very transparently, the place where I was at as described as golden handcuffs, the director of that place was like, amazing. And he straight up said, he was like, if you ever want to leave, he was like, I will invent an impressive sounding job title for you. Like, he was, he was like, I’m not trying to like box you in. But there were, there were some powers that be that might have been. For me, I didn’t do that. Because, um, part of me, leaving, I will admit, was kind of like a flex to show them that I could. Because I had people that was like, yo, you’re nuts. LinkedIn is not gonna get you another job. So part of my part of it was like, now I’m gonna show you like, I’m gonna show you and so I didn’t. But I think what you say makes absolute sense, like a stupid job title, or stupid sounding job title, as long as whatever title you present accurately describes the work that you did, because I think like, that’s what’s missing with these weird job titles is that they don’t describe the work that you’re doing.

SPEAKER 2 43:21

But the one thing I think we’re capriciously understood nowadays is we as millennials, and xennials, and generation the new generation, right, the as I say, the following generation on the last column, right? Know that we are looking for the job title, we big sounding the call job because we can brag to my friends about it. Yep. Oh, they know that. So they know that if I give you a, okay salaries you can live off of, and I can give you the sort of packages in this cool side of the job title and saying this is what you do. It will sound great. One thing that we need to break ourselves from is the job title may sound good that you are a project manager x y and z done bah, bah, bah. But do you really have the skills and the know how to do St John’s back? Right people to back you up? When it comes down to you’re getting your kudos and things like that when it comes down to promotions and labour to another company?

SPEAKER 1 44:23

Oh, man, yeah, job titles mean nothing to me. Like nothing. And you know, like the one thing I’ll say is like, if you’re gonna fabricate your jobs, I will not fabricate but like, if you’re in a situation where you have like a silly job title, and you have to like rework it. I think that’s a common thing to do. But the thing I’ll say is like, don’t like don’t fabricate it, don’t lie. You know, I there’s too many people on the internet right now. This line, too many entrepreneurs lying about their successful business and, and, and too many, you know, too many people lying about how they How you know, like, I know people that I’m very close to, they’re telling all kinds of lies on the internet about their career. And that’s not like, if you want to talk about documentation, like Do not lie, cuz it’s gonna catch up with you. Right? Like, I mean, yeah, and here’s the story, I’ll give you that I, I have a friend who has a very large internet presence, I have several friends who have very large internet presences. And one of the, you know, one in particular is a master of deceit. It’s very good at it. World Class. And, uh, and I had a person reach out to me who was interested in investing in new venture. They were like, you got to give it to me straight. And I was like, look, because of my reputation. I’m not like, you know, like, I have to pull out a different receipt that wasn’t, you know, I was like, this is not true. You know, like, it’s like, it’s just straight up a lie. And so the thing like, you will get caught if you if you are making up stuff if you lie in about your receipts. Like, that’s not the type of documentation we need. But, uh, yeah, I think I think if, you know, if you have to be creative with your job title, or, or anything like that, I really think it just has to describe what you actually are doing. Right? Like, like, I have a job that people think is impressive. And I’m like, I don’t even I don’t even know what that means in the like, in our organization. Like, I’m to new house. I don’t care. I just like, I like I like to have fun at work. That’s all I care about.

SPEAKER 2 46:52

So like, Yes, I know. I know. I’ve lied on that. That really lied. But exaggerated some my job titles like I was a record job title. I’m a processing engineer. So

SPEAKER 1 47:05

That sounds impressive.

SPEAKER 2 47:06

It does sound impressive. But, but that’s what I do. But also said he had the project management tools I’ve done. I’ve had Oh, yeah, by the way, but by foot. My title was process safety engineer. But I’ve also say, yeah, I’ve done project management. I’ve done XYZ and done.

SPEAKER 1 47:24

But you have

SPEAKER 2 47:25

I have

SPEAKER 1 47:26

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER 2 47:27

My official job title was process AP engineer slash project manager, even though I never was officially granted that process, meaning that project management position, I got you. Companies, yes, I’ve done process. Project Management, therefore, I will grant myself the title. They don’t know that. But they do know, I have the experience to do the work.

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