Anti-Asian Racism, #BlackLivesMatter, & White Supremacy (w/ Lily Zheng)

Zach sits down with Lily Zheng, author, consultant, speaker, and all around DE&I Thought Leader to discuss anti-Asian racism, systemic oppression, the failures of corporatized D&I, and their book, The Ethical Sellout – make sure you tune in!

You can connect with Lily on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram.

Find out more about their book, The Ethical Sellout, on Amazon.

Check out Lily’s personal website.

TRANSCRIPT

Zach (00:00): Living Corporate is brought to you by The Access Point. The reality is, this is the largest influx of black and brown talent corporate America has ever had. And as a result, a variety of talent entering the workforce are first-generation professionals. The other reality? Most of these folks aren’t learning what it means to navigate a majority white workplace in their college classes, enter The Access Point. A live weekly web show within The Living Corporate Network that gives black and brown college students the real talk they need and likely haven’t heard elsewhere. Every week, our hosts and special guests are dropping gems. So, don’t miss out. Check out The Access Point, airing every Tuesday at 7:00 PM Central Standard, on livingcorporate.tv. [music]

(00:55): What’s up you all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate. Really thankful again. Thankfulness, you all have heard that word over and over and over and over again, if you’ve been paying any type of attention to Living Corporate for the past couple months, because I am. I’m thankful. For those who may know, who’ve been just looking at the news, Texas, like turned all the way off a couple of weeks ago. There was no power at all. Now, I want you to understand something. It’s not that my house didn’t have any power. I’m saying Texas didn’t have no power. So, I go outside of my dark and quiet and cold house, and then I want to go to the gas station and get some formula for my daughter and the gas station is turned off. Okay.

(01:41): I want to go… Maybe we want to move and go to a hotel. So, we have some power, running water. Hotel turned off. And so, it was in that moment, I realized though just what matters and what’s important. I think that this season has really forced me and I’m certain millions of others, to do an accounting for what really matters. And our house is cold, but I’m a snuggly person. My wife is snuggly and Emory a snuggly. So, we were able to hang out on the bed and chill and thank God we had plenty of food and we had a gas stove. So, we were able to still cook and keep things warm. And our in-laws, my in-laws rather, Candice’s parents, came over with tons of water that we still have. That I’m tempted to drink everyday, but Candice is like, «Look Zach, we have purified water back so we need to keep that for the next time». I’m like, «Okay, my bad.»

(02:37): The point is, is that I’m thankful because as challenging and painful as these last 13 months or so have been, there’s been some beauty there in that I’ve been able to slow down and really cherish my family. And thankfully my immediate family and even extended family have been safe. I haven’t lost anybody to COVID. I’m thankful for that. And I’m thankful for Living Corporate. Shout out to Apple podcast for featuring us on their list ‹for black creators’. Shout out to Spotify for featuring us on there by black playlist’. Thank you to LinkedIn for the feature. Just thank you. Thank you, Canaries for the work and sponsoring us and supporting us. Thank you for the Winners Crew for sponsoring us and supporting us. Thank you for… Just thank you all. I’m happy.

(03:31): Like I’m really, really thankful. I think that it’s in that spirit that I also want to say happy International Women’s Day, which was yesterday and happy Women’s History Month. Shout out to all the women out here who are history makers. Shout out to my mom, shout out to my wife, shout out to my daughter, Emory. She’s already making history. You know what I’m saying? She’s not even a year old yet, she already making history. Just thank you all. Shout out to you all. Now Minda Harts, for those who know anything about Living Corporate, you all know Minda Harts is a friend of the show. She made a really great point. A reiteration not that many folks have been saying, but she said it most recently. And so, it’s forwarded in my mind that it came from her is it’s important that for women’s month we’re being intersectional. We’re not celebrating women if we’re not celebrating all women.

(04:18): What do I mean by all women? Black women, brown women, straight women, queer women, able-bodied, disabled women, trans women. We need to be supportive and celebratory and appreciative for the contributions of all women because women make the world go round. Often at the expense of themselves. And so, please expect content from Living Corporate that continues to center and amplify those who are on the margins. And you’ll see that. You’ll see that through our blog, Hidden Content with Madison Buttler. You’ll see that through The Group Chat, hosted by Nubianna Aben. You’ll see that through The Break Room, which has a diverse suite of hosts. You’ll see that through The Access Point, shout out to Tiffany Tate. You’re going to see that you’re going to continue to see representation in the space that reflects our values and reflects real talk in the corporate world where we’re trying to have.

(05:20): Now, today’s guest, really excited that they took the time to come on Living Corporate’s flagship podcast. I’ve appreciated their work for some time now. I’ve read their articles and their blog posts and so on and so forth. And the thoughts that they bring to the table over and over and over continue to really lead the space. Like when you think about someone who is just leaning forward and really setting the tone and pace and temperature for this work. When you think about really, like in my mind, there’s a certain echelon of people, right? And this isn’t going to be exhausted. But I think about Britney J. Harris, Mary Francis Winters, I think about Crystal Johnson. I think about myself, no cap. I think about Neil Edwards. I think about Liz Sweigert, when I think about thought leaders who are really like pushing things forward and having like the most progressive ideas. And when you think around like centering equity and justice in the space, I think about Michelle J. Kim.

(06:27): I think about Goddess Rivera. I think about these people, Nicole Hannah Jones, of course. I think about these individuals. Dr. Tema Okun, I think about Dr. Oney and Ushe Blackstock. I think about the Blackstocks and then I also, in this group of people that I have in my mind, I think about Lily Zheng. Lily Zheng is an incredible thought leader, speaker, educator, author. And I’m excited because we have a conversation that spans a few different things, but we center it on anti-Asian racism and the systems that create, or that allow for these sorts of abuses to exist. We talk a bit about this tension between Asian American and black American communities. And more specifically, we’re talking about East Asian communities and black American communities, recognizing that it’s a huge swath of cultures and backgrounds and things. But we try to talk a bit about it because there’s a lot of tension in the space right now regarding East Asian violence and anti-Asian racism and the source of that and the rationale and reason for that. And so, we talk about that. We talk about a whole host of things. I’m really excited for you to hear the conversation that we have. But before we do that, we’re going to tap in with Tristan. See you soon.

Tristan (08:03): What’s going on Living Corporate? It’s Tristan. And I want to thank you for tapping back in with me, as I provide some tips and advice for professionals. Today, let’s discuss job application trackers, what they are and why you should have one during your job search. Have you ever been in the middle of a job search and you get a call from a company stating they’d like to have you for an interview, but you weren’t even sure which job it was for? Let’s be real. Most of us have been there. I applied to over 200 jobs straight out of college, and it was hard to keep them straight. So, I did what many career coaches would suggest you do. Start a job application tracker sheet. These sheets serve as a one-stop-shop for you to remember all the jobs you applied to and organizes access to any additional information that may be useful.

(08:48): Most people make the trackers using Microsoft Excel or Google Sheets. You can have as many sections as you would like, but let’s discuss key sections I would suggest to keep all of your information straight. The first three critical pieces of information are the job title, the company you applied to and the job description. These are the basic foundations of the job application tracker. Most people would recommend linking to the job description. I suggest copying the job description into Google Docs and linking to that document within your tracker, since companies often take down job descriptions. This will allow you to refer back to it whenever the need arises. Another section people like to have is application status, such as applied, denied, first round interview, second round interview, offer received, etc.

(09:35): There are a couple of additional sections that can be useful. If you’re tailoring your resume for each role you apply to, you should keep track of the version of the resume you sent. Typically, I analyze job descriptions to identify key words to modify my resume. I like to track some of those key words in my job tracker. Lastly, if you’re reaching out to contacts at the company for informational interviews, your tracker can be a great way to keep track of their name, contact info and dates of conversation so you can easily reference the information at any point in time. Job searching is already stressful enough as it is. If you can stay organized throughout the process, you can streamline it a bit and eliminate some of that stress.

(10:15): Thanks for tapping in with me today. Don’t forget, I’m now taking submissions from you all on career questions, issues, concerns, or advice you think may help others. So, make sure to submit yours at bit.ly/tapintristan. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Layfield Resume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield on LinkedIn.

Zach (10:42): Living Corporate is brought to you by The Group Chat, a bi-weekly web show on The Living Corporate Network, that tackles diversity, equity and inclusion topics, your jobs, legal and HR departments would never let fly. With topics like white supremacy at work, finding out that I’m a Karen, de-colonizing DENI, racial gaslighting at work and imposter syndrome while black, you may be able to see why. But you may also be able to see why so many folks love it. Between our incredible host and our guests, which ranged from fortune 500 executives to academics, to activist, to entrepreneurs, every other Saturday at 10:00 AM Central Standard is something special. So, make sure you check out The Group Chat on livingcorporate.tv.

Zach (11:29): Lily, what’s going on? Welcome to the show, how you doing?

Lily (11:31): It’s good to be here. Thanks for having me.

Zach (11:33): Look, I am really thankful that you’re going to take the time to be on Living Corporate. As we look at the panoramic of the last 18 months, early the past, I’ll say the past year, right? There’s been so much that’s been going on. A lot of focus and increased focus on racial equity on using certain terms. And I when I say focus on racial equity, what I mean is a popular conversation or they’re leveraging the jargon. I don’t know how much they’re necessarily absorbing, like really practicing these concepts or putting anything into action. But the point is that there’s been a lot of conversation around racial equity, around white supremacy, organizational justice, accountability. These are the words that continue to come up.

Lily (12:20): Right, right.

Zach (12:21): And then there’s also conversations because of spurred by the murder of George Floyd and the other documented murders of black and brown people by the state that have gone viral. There continue to be these discussions. However, what has not been as widely talked about, but has over the past, I would say six weeks or so, gotten additional attention has been anti-Asian violence. Particularly like on the coast. And I’m curious just to get your overall perspective on anti-Asian violence and the tensions within which while we don’t necessarily speak about anti-Asian violence and patterns of violence against Asians in America, I would love to hear your perspective on that, like as a whole, and we can kind of get into it a bit more specific.

Lily (13:11): Right. Well, first of all, geez, this is big, right? There’s a lot to talk about here when it comes to anti-Asian racism in the context also of anti-black racism. I want to just make sure that we start off this conversation acknowledging that these two things are not separate, that they overlap and that state violence against black Americans and honestly, black folks around the world, is just the flip side of the same coin of racism that spawns anti-Asian violence. So, I want to get that loud and clear in the very beginning. I think regarding the anti-Asian racism that we’ve been seeing, we’ve been seeing incidents where individuals on the street are targeting Asians, usually elders and pushing them, punching them, violently attacking them. And these incidents have been happening pretty consistently since the beginning of COVID-19’s impact on the US more than a year ago.

(14:16): We’ve seen very highly documented spikes in anti-Asian violence since I would say early 2020. And that those incidents are only now really sort of entering the public conversation, given the recent spate of violent attacks in the last couple of weeks. So, on a very basic level, I of course denounced this violence that’s happening. But what I want to share today is really ask folks to draw the line, to connect the dots between these incidents of violence we’re seeing and the broader conversation, the arc, the history of race in America. And this goes beyond just Asian Americans. This connects how different racialized groups are pitted against each other. This gets into things like the model minority myth. This gets to conversations about anti-blackness within Asian communities, the heterogeneity of racial groups, no racial group is a monolith. Where do you want to start? We have what, half an hour?

Zach (15:31): Okay. So, let me speak to this from the context of my lived experience as a black man from the South. So, I’m on different social media apps and some of them like more professional leaning, like a fishbowl or blind, then some of them are of course, more casual, like Twitter. And so, there are certain commentary that I see. And it’s almost like this narrative of black people, there’s a higher instance or essentially, that black people are targeting Asians. And that black people are like… If this is really a black problem. This is a problem of black people as acting agents. Now, as someone who is in Houston and frankly, I just didn’t grow up around a lot of East or South Asians like that was not my context, especially I was born in Georgia and so on and so forth.

(16:24): So, I can’t relate to that. At the same time, I don’t dismiss that because I don’t know, I don’t live on the coast. And so, I’m curious to get your perspective when that is brought up. Like these commentary around, well, this is really a black problem and there’s a challenge with black people and they’re attacking Asian-American and more in this context, specifically East Asian Americans, at high rates. And that this is not really like this wide problem. That there’s a challenge here and we don’t bring it up because we will be called racist if we spoke about it pointedly in that way.

(16:57): Yes. Well I think that’s BS. I just straight up don’t buy into that. So, first of all, is there violence from black individuals against Asian individuals? Oh yes. You know, definitely. But would I go so far as to say this is a «black problem»? No, that could not be further from the truth. When you talk about violence against Asians, like let’s talk about undocumented Asians that are mistreated by their white employers. Let’s talk about white collar violence that happens in the workplace every day, where Asians and Asian-Americans are routinely discriminated against and mistreated by typically white employers. Let’s talk about the violence that we experience as a community from the state as well, when it comes to maybe less in the way of East Asians, but when you look at Southeast Asians and how they’ve been historically racialized, racially blackened is one of the terms for it and how state violence falls on them as well.

(18:01): That’s what we should be talking about. And I would go so far as to say that looking at these recent incidents of individual black folks, enacting violence on individual Asian folks and saying, this is an issue where the black community is enacting violence on the Asian community is not only false, but actively trying to pit two different racial groups that have enormous links and have so much in common and have actually historically fought for each other’s freedom and liberation in the history of this country, at odds with each other. And I would say that if sabotage is too strong of a word, it’s not good. I don’t think it’s helpful. I don’t think it’s productive. That’s not the conversation we should be having.

(18:53): Well, let’s talk about that. When we look back at the civil rights movements and I’m not just in this problem in the sixties and like in the black Panther movements and in California, but like even before that like in the forties and fifties. There are documented examples of true co-conspiratorship between these groups and true allyship in partnerships.

Lily (19:14): Absolutely.

Zach (19:14): I’m curious, while I’m excited to have you here Lily, we’re excited to have you for a variety of reasons, but excited to have you here. One of the reasons is because my goal isn’t to pathologize an entire group. I recognize that the Asian community is vast, right? It’s complex. Many subcultures. We think about this path, do you feel as if there’s still that spirit of a co-conspiratorship that we found during the fifties and sixties, civil rights era? Like where is that today? And if you were to point folks to examples of that continuing, does anything come to mind?

Lily (19:55): So, my first response to that is I’m not going to romanticize the past. We had co-conspiratorship before, but it was the exception in the sense that the folks that were able to successfully resist the siren call of pitting our group against another group were relatively few and far between. I think that continues to be true. That’s been true for the entire length of our history. Genuine racial solidarity, whether by simple lack of ability to organize movements that work with each other, or oftentimes by deliberate sabotage and interference, it’s been really difficult to create genuine racial solidarity in the history of America. And that’s a challenge that we continue to have today. I think there is that spirit alive and well. I think in the Bay, there is Asians for Black Lives. It’s the first group that I think of.

(20:55): I’ve done some actions with them in the past. I’m less involved now, but that’s a group that I think of top of mind, when I think of organizations that are committed to racial solidarity, to organizing Asians and Asian Americans to fight alongside our black siblings in the fight for racial justice. That’s just one example. I think it’s very difficult, especially given the model minority myth and the push that many Asians today feel to essentially play the game, keep your head down, don’t say anything. And if you play the game long enough, you’ll be considered an honorary white person and be able to scrape by in society and maybe enjoy a little bit of success. That’s the dream, right? For many East Asians, especially East Asians that have new money. You see this a lot among Asian tech workers that are a different wave compared to some of the fourth and fifth generation Asians living in the US, whose families might have come here during the gold rush. And there’s a class difference there as well.

(22:10): I think racial solidarity is not a pipe dream, but I think it requires that we understand, we being Asians, but also anyone that has a stake in racial justice. It requires that we understand our history. And we understand that this idea of solidarity, isn’t just this raw raw kumbaya, hold your hands sort of thing, but rather a essential ingredient in what is required to create justice for any of us. And that’s been the case during the civil rights movement. That was the case before the civil rights movement. That’s certainly the case now. And we need to embody that by resisting these efforts to pit communities against each other.

Zach (22:54): So then, let’s continue this conversation about racial solidarity. It’s interesting. I mentioned about playing the game and I do believe that white supremacy and patriarchy, they create this carrot, right? That’s right in front of you of essentially pursuing whiteness. But showing your own identity and appeasing to the majority into the power structures that be.

Lily (23:22): Oh, you mean like selling out?

Zach (23:26): Come on, Lily. Yes. We’re going to talk about sell out in a minute as well, but yes. There’s this idea of but that’s the dream and that’s the goal that many non white groups attempted to buy into. This idea of look, just don’t say anything, keep do what you need to do and then you’ll get a little piece of this pie. You’ll get a kiddy seat at the table and you’ll be able to [inaudible 00:23:53] no more and you’ll be good. I’m curious when we kind of continued this conversation about solidarity, what does it look like to practice solidarity in the workplace?

Lily (24:05): In the workplace? Okay. So, this is a little bit of a shift. In the workplace, what I always tell people to do, the conversation about solidarity and allyship in general, not just in the workplace is very, very limited. And this is one of my primary critiques of it. It’s very interpersonal. Look for any allyship guide you find on the internet and you’ll see things like being a good ally means if you see someone getting spoken over, you speak up. Being an ally means if you see someone facing discrimination, you step in and you say, don’t do that. Stop doing that. We don’t do that here. And that’s all well and good, right? That is allyship. But I find that the roots of the issues that all of our communities are facing today are not necessarily interpersonal ones. We’re stuck in the micro when we need to be looking at the macro.

(24:58): So, that means looking at workplaces, what we’re dealing with is a history, a decades long history, where people of color are being suppressed. Where wages are not transparent. Where they’re low. Where people don’t have the ability to bring their authentic selves to work. Where promotion, hiring, feedback, all of these structures and processes exist in ways that benefit the status quo. For example, you only get promoted if Joe, your manager likes you and Joe, your white man manager really likes playing golf and going to the bar for drinks. So, good luck getting a promotion if he doesn’t want to play golf with you or get drinks with you. All of these things are artifacts of a history of whether explicit or not, white supremacy in the workplace. And that means if we actually want to create genuine improvements for communities of color, which is by the way, the goal of any allyship.

(26:07): To actually genuinely improve the lived experience of the group you’re allying with, then we need to address these artifacts. We need to change these systems, not just speak up and feel good about ourselves, but to act and do effectively and strategically to change these structures. So, that’s what solidarity looks like. I’m not going to tell people to like, make one black friend or make one Asian friend or celebrate lunar new year, one year.

Zach (26:41): That’s so offensive.

Lily (26:41): Or go to the mid-autumn festival and eat a mooncake.

Zach (26:48): I was just going to say order some Chinese food. What are you talking about?

Lily (26:48): No. Eating Chinese food doesn’t do any solidarity for us. How would you get us paid? How would you get us promotions? How would you strike down white supremacy? That’s solidarity. And it goes all ways. Asians, you don’t show solidarity to black communities by listening to rap. I’ve literally heard that before.

Zach (27:08): That’s wild.

Lily (27:08): Like, Oh, I’m consuming black music. I’m consuming black culture. Like, yes, you and everyone else in America. Like what are you doing to actually substantially and tangibly elevate the lived experiences of black community? Come back when you have an answer. Because that’s what solidarity looks like. That’s what it takes.

Zach (27:27): Let’s talk a bit about the intersection of identity within these groups and how that creates challenges. So, you talked about things being limited and you spoke about systems too, which I love. Because I do agree of course, that it’s easy. And I think there’s this part of this capitalistic and patriarchal structure that we have, that we love the story of the individual. So, we love like underdogs. We love the idea of this person individually going to do this thing. And we’ve been conditioned I do believe culturally, to really reject systems thinking. We’ll quickly categorize anything that talks about a system as blaming or being a victim or whatever the case may be, as opposed to really understanding this larger machine that we’re all a part of.

(28:21): I’m curious though, like, when we think about DEI as a space, and we think about how limited it is, what do you believe needs to happen? So, that we’re also being inclusive of trans and non-binary identities within black and brown communities. So, I frankly don’t see much effort or thought leadership that really specifically centers trans black women. I don’t see that. And I don’t see a lot of content that centers trans.

Lily (28:56): You should follow Elle Hearns.

Zach (28:59): Okay.

Lily (28:59): She’s a black trans woman. I believe one of the original people behind black lives matter if I’m not mistaken.

Zach (29:07): Yes.

Lily (29:08): She’s phenomenal. I love her work. Fantastic woman. I had the chance to interview her for a panel a couple of years back.

Zach (29:15): I’m going to make that note. I’ll make sure to follow her. And I agree that there’s thought leadership out there. I’m speaking to more specifically like this corporate DNI thing.

Lily (29:26): Oh corporate DNI. Well…

Zach (29:27): Yes, yes. To be clear. No, I know. No, no, no. I know for a fact there is plenty of thought leadership and authorship on trans and non-binary identities within black and brown communities. There’s work out there. And so, I am not at all dismissing that. More so thinking about like in the workplace and what we call DNI as a space.

Lily (29:48): Oh man. Well, corporate DEI around trans identity is somewhere in the nineties. Like we’re just sort of stuck there right now.

Zach (29:54): Yes.

Lily (29:54): And the big shift right now has been moving from this very old stereotypical notion of the sort of go on leave, come back to the office a couple of weeks later and like poof, you’re a new person. You’ve changed your name, your gender. Now you can live as your authentic self, which is a very sort of eighties and nineties narrative of how trans people in the workplace operated. It was very binary. It was very white. That’s kind of the corporate trans inclusion. We’ve started moving in this direction of now we recognize non-binary identities. And now we’re asking people to put their pronouns and their bio, like, okay, great.

Lily (30:38): But they’re also white people and that’s a problem, right?

Zach (30:41): Right.

Lily (30:41): Like we have this very sanitized safe way of conceptualizing trans identity, which is, well, if you’re not being loud, if you’re not being aggressive, by the way, these are racially coded things. If you’re not being loud or aggressive or causing trouble, if you’re okay, just kind of being yourself and not being too demanding or harsh then yes, sure. I guess we’ll give you inclusion. And am I going to say it’s worse than what it was in the nineties? No, it’s not. I personally, like I’m non-binary, I use they/them pronouns. It’s great to get they/them pronouns used for me in a corporate setting. Do I appreciate that? Oh yes, absolutely. Do I think things are any better for example, black trans women now compared to the nineties? No, not at all. Because the conflation of the intersection of anti-blackness of transphobia of sexism, the term being transmisogynoir, is the portmanteau of all of those things. That’s alive and well. We haven’t done much around that because doing that requires us to actually tackle racism and sexism and transphobia in the workplace. And if there’s anything corporate DEI is really bad at doing, it’s solving multiple problems at once.

Zach (32:00): Yes. I was about to go off. Yes. I’m going to say it. This is my podcast. It’s my platform. I own this place. They’re bad at solving problems generally. And they’re certainly bad at solving multiple problems at the same time. It seems as if when there’s multiple problems to be solved, which is all the time, I think they just create more problems. So, I agree. Now look, before we go though, let’s talk about your book Ethical Sellout.

Lily (32:21): Sure.

Zach (32:22): Why the title? What’s it about? Why should folks buy it right now?

Lily (32:26): Sure. Okay. What it’s about. So we really dove into the stories of marginalized communities, people of color, trans people, disabled people, queer people, all of the above, really trying to understand why it was that these marginalized communities were sharing so many similar stories of struggling to survive and thrive and live authentically in the sort of, for lack of a better word, complete dumpster fire of late capitalism that we’re currently in right now. And what we found is this sort of universal experience of needing to make compromises, to survive in your day to day. Needing to really make these big ethical decisions around, am I going to work here? Am I going to live here? Am I going to put up with people that have these sorts of values? What’s strategic? What do I need to get by? How do I maintain my connection to my community in such a messed up time and place?

(33:18): And we found that everyone, literally everyone we talked to, was going through the same sort of dilemmas and doing so alone with enormous shame and enormous guilt. People got the feeling of like, well, my community has it figured out they’re all together. They all act as one. Everyone knows how to be a good blank. Like a good trans person, a good Asian person, a good disabled person. And because I can’t fit that model, I must be a bad person. So, we wrote that book because we figured out that all of that was wrong, right? We are all going through these questions all the time, trying to find our own place in the world. Trying to make sense of what we can do as individuals to survive under systems of oppression. Systems that are actively harmful for us.

(34:03): The book was our attempt to collect these sorts of stories, to show people that yes, if you are marginalized, this experience is not unusual. You’re not alone. This happens to so many communities. And also to say, and now this is what you do about it, right? This is how you find balance. This is how you practice self compassion, how you stay honest, how you stay accountable to yourself. If you do things like enter the system to change it from within, it’s something that I read passages from all the time as a consultant. Because you know what they say about authors, right? You write the book that you need to read. And I certainly needed to read this book to square my own participation in corporate life as a DEI consultant. So yes, that’s the pitch. If you find yourself experiencing these things, if you have these big questions about your place in the world and what social justice or DEI means in the context of what you’re going through, check it out. I would highly recommend it. I hope that you find the stories relatable and the advice actionable for you.

Zach (35:06): Lily. Thank you so much. This has been incredible. And like I said, look, I knew based on just your LinkedIn and the content that you write, I know that we’re going to run out of time. But we’re going to do a part two, three, whatever. Okay?

Lily (35:17): Sure.

Zach (35:17): And I just thank you so much. You all make sure you check out links in the show notes and make sure you check out Ethical Sellout. And until next time, we’ll talk soon Lilly.

Lily (35:27): Alright. Take care. Thank you for having me.

Zach (35:29): Peace.

(35:31): Living Corporate is brought to you by The Break Room. Have you ever felt burnt out, depressed or otherwise exhausted by being one of the only ones that work? You know what I’m talking about. Hosted by black psychologist, psychiatrist and PhDs, The Break Room is a live weekly web show in The Living Corporate Network, that discusses mental health, wellness, and healing for black folks at work. Name another weekly show explicitly focused on mental health, wellness, and healing for black folks at work. I’ll wait. This is why you got to check out the break room airing every Thursday at 7:00 PM Central Time on livingcorporate.tv.

Zach (36:14): And we’re back. Thank you so much to Lily Zheng. Cannot wait to have them back on. They are also a friend of the show. Really excited and thankful for their contributions, the thoughts that they were able to provide and the conversation we were able to have. I hope that you check out the book, Ethical Sellout. It’s in the show notes. Make sure you click that and look you all, until next time it’s been Zach, you’ve been listening to Living Corporate. Catch you all next time.

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