Being a Professional Troublemaker (w/ Luvvie Ajayi)

Zach sits down with Luvvie Ajayi, an award-winning writer, digital strategist and speaker who’s been thriving at the intersection of comedy, technology and activism for 15 years, to talk about identity, purpose and courage through her book Professional Troublemaker: The Fear-Fighter Manual.

You can connect with Luvvie on LinkedIn and Twitter.

Learn more about (and pre-order) her upcoming book here.

Check out her personal website.


Zach (00:00): Living Corporate is brought to you by The Group Chat, a bi-weekly web show on The Living Corporate Network, that tackles diversity, equity, and inclusion topics, your jobs, legal, and HR departments would never let fly. With topics like white supremacy at work, finding out that I’m a Karen, de-colonizing DE&I, racial gaslighting at work, and im poster syndrome while black, you may be able to see why. But you may also be able to see why so many folks love it. Between our incredible host and our guests, which ranged from Fortune 500 executives to academics, to activists, to entrepreneurs, every other Sat urday at 10:00 AM Central Standard is something special. So, make sure you check out The Group Chat on [music]

(00:53): What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate. Really excited, thankful, all of those different things for the fact that I was on CBS. Did you all see it? I was on CBS Good Morning. We were talking about racial bias at work and I got on there and was able to share my experiences as a black man in corporate America. And then I was able to plug Living Corporate and you all, Living Corporate was all on the TV screen and then they got a screenshot of me, I mean Aaron did, shout out to Aaron. Thank you very much. My face is on there. You know what I’m saying? It says Zachary Nunn, Founder of Living Corporate. It’s just super surreal. I just want to thank CBS This Morning for reaching out. I want to shout out Wise who is the founder of the ICN Network.

(01:40): So, ICN Network, is this platform all about black podcasts, really, really encouraging. It just reminds me about going back and like staying humble to your roots of the people that really helped you. And I got to remember to keep my core values, my core values, right? There’s other networks and platforms of folks who are willing to help and support, but it’s important that you practice group economics. Look out for those who look out for you. And the reality is that black folks, we have to continue to practice sharing and supporting one another. And if it wasn’t for Wise connecting the dots for me, I probably wouldn’t have been on there. I would not have been on CBS This Morning. It was all just very, fell in my lap. So, shout out to Wise. Shout out to the guys, shout out to the team, shout out to you all, the fans, the listeners. Appreciate you all.

(02:29): Now look before we get into our conversation today, I really want to shout out the team, right? So, hopefully you have noticed we have new ads. Different ads, all of them focused on the content that Living Corporate creates. We’re a digital media network, so we’re creating content that centers and amplifies black and brown folks at work. And we have a lot of different ways to do that. This flagship podcast is just that it’s the flagship, but it’s not the only thing we do. And so, my hope is that if you listen to Living Corporate, you’re a fan Living Corporate, you would check out our other podcasts, you would check out our other web shows, you would check out our blogs. That you would just check us out, right? Explore us, have a good time, hang out awhile, share it with your friends, share with your people.

(03:09): You know, I hope that we continue to grow. Like Living Corporate is the biggest thing. The podcast is our biggest thing, but we’re also growing a lot with The Access Point and The Group Chat and our newest show, The Break Room. Plus we have The Leadership Range and we have the See It To Be It series and we have Madison Butler who is one of our incredible writers, who’s creating super dope content for the platform. Just super thankful for everybody, because this is not a one person show. This is a community of creators and creatives and people who are just passionate about diversity, equity, inclusion and coming together to create something really special. And I believe that CBS This Morning is one of many things that are going to continue to happen and that’s because of our team and that’s because of you all. So, thank you.

(03:54): Now look, today I’m really excited because I have Luvvie. Luvvie is an incredible, incredible talent, thought leader, speaker, educator, author, mentor, advocate, just a great person, like super dope. I’m a fan of her content, Professional Troublemaker, Jesus and Jollof. We talk a little bit about her journey. We talk a bit about her book and so we’re going to get into that. But before we go to our conversation with Luvvie, we’re going to tap in with Tristan.

Tristan (04:30): What’s going on Living Corporate? It’s Tristan. And I want to thank you for tapping back in with me, as I provide some tips and advice for professionals. Today, let’s discuss three reasons why you should join your company’s employee resource groups. For those of you who aren’t aware of what employee resource groups or ERGs are, they’re voluntary employee led groups made up of individuals who joined together based on shared interests, backgrounds or demographic factors, such as gender, race, ethnicity, or sexuality. They can also go by the names, business resource groups, diversity networks, colleague resource groups, and team member networks. So, why should you join them? First, it’s an excellent opportunity to gain leadership experience. Typically, these groups have a leadership team, committees and opportunities to lead the planning and execution of certain events and projects. If you’re looking for a way to show you can lead teams and create results, ERGs can provide that opportunity without you having to wait for a position or a promotion to do so.

(05:30): ERGs also provide you greater visibility in the organization. Most ERGs have an executive sponsor and other organizational leaders who are involved. So, if you lead an ERG project or committee, you often get to work with senior leaders, which provides you with the exposure you probably wouldn’t get in your day to day role. You also don’t have to worry about feeling like you’re going over your boss’s head to develop relationships with these leaders. This leads me to my final point. ERGs are a great way to build your network within your company outside of your immediate area. ERGs bring employees from different levels and functions across the whole organization together. This provides opportunities to identify and develop relationships, especially with people who could be potential mentors or sponsors.

(06:15): Remember 75% to 80% of jobs are filled through networking and referrals. Networking at your current job can help you get that promotion, transfer into that department you want to work in, or secure a referral when your new connection lands that role at the company you want to work at. While ERGs do require work outside of your standard duties and responsibilities, they can also significantly impact your career trajectory. And don’t forget, you can join more than one to maximize some of these benefits. Thanks for tapping in with me today. Don’t forget, I’m now taking submissions from you on all career questions, issues, concerns, or advice you think may help others. So, make sure to submit yours at intristan. This tip was brought to you by Tristan of Layfield Resume Consulting. Check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at Layfield Resume or connect with me, Tristan Layfield on LinkedIn.

Zach (07:11): Living Corporate is brought to you by The Leadership Range, a podcast within the Living Corporate Network. Hosted by globally certified and fortune 500 executive coach and leadership development expert Neil Edwards, The Leadership Range is focused on having real, raw, soulful and accountable conversations about inclusive leadership, allyship, professional development. Every week is a new episode with new learning and new actions to take on, to grow inclusively. Make sure you check out The Leadership Range everywhere you listen to podcasts.

Zach (07:44): Luvvie, welcome to the show. How you doing?

Luvvie (07:46): Thank you for having me Zach. Doing well.

Zach (07:49): Alright, now look, I’m late, but we haven’t connected before. So, I’m going to go ahead and say congrats on the recent nuptials, you had two weddings in a day in the middle of a panoramic. Congratulations.

Luvvie (07:59): You know, it actually wasn’t, it was September, 2019. So, it wasn’t, the panoramic was not happening yet.

Zach (08:04): Well look, anyway. I’m still saying congratulations. Remember folks, it’s congratulations anyway.

Luvvie (08:07): Thank you.

Zach (08:07): So, you recently celebrated your one year anniversary, so, still all good.

Luvvie (08:12): Absolutely.

Zach (08:14): Now, a bit more recent and a bit more sad. Your therapist recently passed away. You tweeted about riding through those feelings. It feels like you’re constantly growing and evolving in front of us. Like us being like the public in near real time. What’s that like? How do you manage what you keep in house and what you wait to reveal?

Luvvie (08:35): Yes. So, how I manage it? I think I just figure out what I need to learn out loud and share out loud. Hoping other people get to kind of see what it looks like in practice. So, for me, I think sharing that my therapist died was something that felt like I needed to say, because I talk about therapy a lot. I talk about going to therapy. I encourage people to go to therapy. So, for such a big part of my life to be affected, I was like, yes, this is something I should share. Because again, oftentimes we find that people don’t really talk about what they’re actually going through. And learning out loud often looks like sometimes processing some of this stuff out loud, I think I still have strong boundaries. I’m not sharing every single thing, but the therapist news was something that I felt like, yes, I actually have to talk about this because I talk about therapy so often that if I just stopped talking about it, it won’t feel right. And people want to know like, so how’s therapy going? And I share often what my therapist teaches me. So, that was important to pass on. Like therapists can actually die. You never think about it.

Zach (09:54): You don’t.

Luvvie (09:54): You never think about it.

Zach (09:55): I mean, well, it’s because they’re a part of for me anyway, my experience is like your therapist can often be like, I mean yes, they’re a person, but they’re more so like a figure or a pillar in your life.

Luvvie (10:08): Yes.

Zach (10:08): You don’t think that that’s going to just go away, because why would that go away? Until it goes away.

Luvvie (10:13): Exactly. It’s something that you kind of take for granted. It’s not even that they took it for granted. Because I constantly talked about how amazing my therapist was and how she was constantly dropping gems. But yes, you take the fact that you even have one for granted because of course they’re going to be there when you schedule your appointment and when you show up, they’ll be there too. Yes, no.

(10:34): But I think really what happened as a result of me sharing that experience is a lot of people in the week since my therapist passed, have been hitting me up to be like, I actually ended up telling my therapist that I really appreciate them. They had like real strong moments with their therapist in ways they never have, because they were like, it gave them the perspective to look at this person that’s sitting across from them and being like, wow, thank you for what you’ve done for me so far. So, I’ve heard such great feedback from how people have processed this, even with their therapist. Some of their therapists have been like they’re creating succession plans because they even never thought about what happens if they were to somehow be incapacitated what would happen with their clients. So, yes.

Zach (11:28): That’s real. And speaking of just learning or sharing and learning out loud, talk to me about 2020. Of course we thank God that is over. But what are the things that 2020 created clarity for you on? As you think about just experiencing the year in totality, what things are clear to you now that were not as clear in 2019?

Luvvie (11:54): I think the pandemic was really interesting and it’s still interesting because it basically revealed everything that you might not realize that you were compartmentalizing or everything that you might not realize you were dealing with or how fast you were running. And I think for me, that’s a big part, like how fast I was running and have been running for the last six years became really clear to me when the pandemic happened. And I actually could sit on my couch and not be jumped on a plane every two days to go to a speaking engagement. And it confirmed to me that taking that time is necessary. I have actually really enjoyed not having to constantly go, go, go. That’s been a big thing that I’ve allowed myself. The fact that I don’t have to be nowhere, I just have to come into my home office.

(12:55): I don’t have to be in three different cities in one week. Listen, it has recharged my batteries in a way. It’s let me get back to my writing, which is something that in the past, because I got so busy, my writing got left behind. Let’s say this was 2018 and my therapist just died. I wouldn’t even be able to process it because I’d be on the way to a speaking engagement. Then after that I’d be on the way to a conference. And then after that I’d be going somewhere else. So, I wouldn’t be able to sit with it. And I think the stillness has been a gift.

Zach (13:35): Yes. That resonates with me Luvvie because I think about one, so, my daughter Emory she’s 10 months old now. So, she was born in March. And I think in addition to running Living Corporate full-time, I’m also a full-time consultant. So, had we not had this parabola, I’d be traveling. And so, this list last year, I think for me, it really gave me clarity on family and the fragility of life. Because when you have this newborn, you have this brand new person in the world. You’re like, man… And so, one, things are already fragile because it’s a new life, but then you think about there’s a pandemic going on. So, what does it look like to be even more cautious and careful and thoughtful about taking care of your body and being mindful of your health?

(14:25): Like it’s just… So, yes, I hear you on that. So, let me ask you this, because you talk about this on on your show Jesus and Jellof. You did. I really appreciate it. First of all, Jesus and Jellof is great. I still run back old episodes. It’s very funny. So,

Luvvie (14:42): Thank you.

Zach (14:42): No, no, it’s very funny. But I think this conversation has really yet to settle. Do you believe that the racial animosity of the last five years peaked, I would say at the insurrection of January 6th, has closed or will continue to close the ADOS and non ADOS divides?

Luvvie (15:05): I don’t know. I have no clue. I think I’m hoping what we’re seeing right now is what happens when we actually allow ourselves to be divided. I’m hoping we are learning from this moment that it’s really important for us to find common ground. And when we don’t, the cracks that form are massive. And honestly for me, being black is the ultimate flex. And whether I’m African or African-American or whatever titles people want to take on I’m black. And I’m part of a global network of people who I feel deeply obligated to. And there’s a lot of nationalism that happens that makes us think that we are somehow different, more different than not. Let me tell you being black, when you travel around the world, you realize that blackness, although it’s not a monolith, it’s a strong holding an anchor.

(16:09): And you know, when you go to a different country, when you go to Jamaica, you find black folk who look like your cousins. When you go to Ghana, you’ll find people who look like your cousins. I went to freaking Netherlands and saw black folk who looked like my cousin. So, I actually don’t think it’s productive for us to be on opposing sides as if we’re Africans or if we’re American born black people. It just doesn’t do us any favors. It doesn’t do us any favors. And what we’re seeing with this interaction and all this white nationalism is that the one thing that they’ve considered their common ground is their whiteness. And they’ll ride that until the wheels fall off. They’ll use that as a uniting point and whether or not they agree on certain things, they’re just like you white, I’m white, I bet I’m going to protect it.

Zach (16:59): We’re going to ride.

Luvvie (16:59): At all costs. We’re going to ride. And that’s wild because we’ll find ways to other each other and next thing you know, we’re on opposing sides and all we have are numbers. That’s the thing. When we don’t have privilege of power, all we have is privilege in numbers, and we’re not using that privilege fully.

Zach (17:21): I’m right there with you. I 100% agree with you. So, look, we did all this talking. I want to get to it. Let’s talk about your book, Professional Troublemaker. First off…

Luvvie (17:31): Word, word.

Zach (17:32): Why the title?

Luvvie (17:37): That’s actually how I started my Ted Talk. The first words I say is I’m a professional troublemaker. And that was an important way for me to start the talk. Because when people hear that phrase, you’re probably like, «dang, are you going to call yourself that?» And I’m like, yes, because I think being a troublemaker has gotten a bad rap. A lot of times being a troublemaker is about being a disruptor, being a trailblazer, being somebody who is charting their own course or being somebody who’s challenging things that’s not okay. I think about John Lewis who charged us up and said, we got to make necessary good trouble. And what that usually looks like is you’re the person who’s saying what people don’t want to hear, but sometimes really need to. You’re the one who’s making sure in the meeting you’re pointing out the idea that’s not good. Usually the person that is looking out for other people’s blind spots.

(18:31): So, yes, being a professional troublemaker is what I aspire to be and what I am in the world as this truth teller. So, I decided to call my second book Professional Troublemaker because the real goal of this book is to encourage people and empower them to fight their fears. Because for us to live audaciously, for us to go pass what the world wants us to be, we’re going to have to do some scary things. We’re going to have to make some trouble in our own lives for the greater good. So, my story and my journey as a writer and a speaker, and just as a person is soaring because of moments where I decided to do something that felt too big for me. It was something that was clear that whenever I let fear be the first factor in my decision-making, I lose. But whenever I go, you know what, I’m afraid, but this thing I got to do it, I win. So, even my Ted Talk was that. I had turned that talk down twice because I was afraid that I wasn’t ready for it. Like Ted does not play about these things.

Zach (19:47): Luvvie, what’s up with these flexes? So, you start off talking about, hey, this came from my Ted Talk, but you nicely said, I turned them down twice. It’s nothing for me. Goodness gracious. Just keep going. I’m listening to you.

Luvvie (19:56): No, it’s true. I turned down my Ted Talk twice because I didn’t think I was ready for it. I was afraid of bombing. Because let me tell you, Ted don’t play about these stages.

Zach (20:06): I had heard.

Luvvie (20:06): Oh no, they don’t play. When you are asked to do an official Ted Talk, they ask for script. They will edit your talk and make sure it is up to their standards. They will assign you to a coach. And have you rehearsed for months before you ever even touched the stage. So, when they invited me, I was like, oh, I ain’t got time for all of that. I’m not ready for all of that. So, I turned it down. They asked me again and I was like, I’m doing a speaking tour and I definitely won’t have time for it. And then I hit them up just to be like, hi, can I just get a day pass and just come support my friends? And they were like, well, if you can come, we want you to speak. And that was three weeks before the, before Ted. Yes. And I was like, that’s wild. Because everybody else at that point had like five months worth of practice and rehearsal and what not.

(21:02): So, one of my friends did not let me say no. She literally was like, you don’t think you’re prepared because everybody has done all this stuff, but everybody isn’t you. So, she was like, you have to do this. And so, I did the Ted Talk scared. I was petrified because I was like, Oh my God.

Zach (21:22): It didn’t show. It didn’t show in the video though.

Luvvie (21:22): It didn’t because when I stepped on that stage, it was like an out-of-body experience. And that Ted Talk that you see is the Ted Talk I gave on that stage, it was kind of crazy. So, my Ted Talk ended up being the first one from that event that Ted decided to feature. They featured it a month later and the talk got a million views in a month.

(21:46): And what I realized was imagine if I didn’t do it? That talk now has like 5.5 million views and has gotten me countless speaking engagements. Has had so many people reach out to me and say like, hey, this is what impact it did. And I’m like imagine if I didn’t do that thing because I just kept being scared. Imagine if they let me keep being scared. Imagine if I had kept on saying no to that yes opportunity. How much would I have missed out on? And that’s why I was like that’s what I got to write my second book about. We got to all stop being scared and stopping ourselves from doing what we’re supposed to do, because it means we’re letting fear stop us from doing purpose-driven work and that’s not good. So yes, that’s why I wrote this book. And that’s why I’m so excited for people to have it in their hands.

Zach (22:41): Well, let me call something out. Because I know that you talk about faith, your relationship with God often. I want to highlight something about just God’s grace and favor in your life because Ted reached out to you and you said, no. Then they reached out again and you said, no. Then you just ask for a day pass and they still were pursuing you. That’s a blessing. Everyone doesn’t have like the blessing to even want to get recognized, let alone to turn them down. You have so much going on and yes, there was fear involved and I respect that. But you also had legitimate things going on to decline right? You were moving.

Luvvie (23:21): Yes. Yes. Yes. But I think a lot of it, I mean you’re not wrong. Like God’s grace is all over my life. I always say that like my journey is a testament to my hard work, my gifts, but also God’s grace. Because half the time and half the things that happen, I’m like, I can’t even explain it because after the first time they asked me and I said, no, that should have probably been it. Right? But the fact that they didn’t let me say no and they kept on going, it was almost like they were being sent back to be like, nope, nope, nope. We need her to do this. And I’m always cognizant of that. And that’s why for me, humility looks like, I know I’m dope at what I do, but it’s also God be working on my behalf.

Zach (24:16): Well, they talk about like, one of my pastors was talking to me about the biblical definition of humility. It’s agreeing with who God says you are. You know, it’s not about necessarily thinking that you’re not X, Y, and Z. Like you said, you know you’re dope. You know you got it going on. You’re doing what you need to do. And it’s about moving accordingly in light of who you know you’ve been made to be. So, that’s super dope. Let’s talk about this a bit more because as I read your book and what continue to come and stick out to me was this concept of self-advocacy. Like ultimately when you talk about speaking truth to power, and I think about professional troublemaking, honestly, the most trouble I’ve gotten into Luvvie is when I just tell the truth at my job.

Luvvie (25:11): Yes, it’s real. And I think that troublemaking of truth telling it’s something that I’m hoping, the people who are at the top of companies, when they see me in the world, they’re like, we’ve been bugging because we’ve actually been punishing people for telling the truth. You know, like when I’m encouraging people like you to like speak up, I’m hoping the people who are above you at your job are also now seeing their own habits in punishing folks.

Zach (25:42): Right. Right. And 100%. So, Luvvie, I’ll give you an example. So, like I told you, I’m a full-time consultant while I have this full-time. You don’t think that people pull me aside or ask me questions, or I’m not seeing as a bit of a troublemaker for having this platform that’s in as amplifies black and brown folks at work while I’m a black person at work? It creates challenges, but in the book, what really resonated with me was just the fact of pushing past those fears and batting those things back, because of all the things that fear can to your point earlier about the Ted Talks, force you to miss out on. I mean the benefits certainly outweigh the cons, even if they’re not immediate.

Luvvie (26:25): I agree and I think we basically have to make sure that we’re holding ourselves to better standards than the world is asking, right? The world will always give us a reason to be quiet. We will always have reasons to not show up properly because there’s so many things that are standing in our way that are telling us that don’t do this thing it’s too risky.

Zach (26:51): Always. Yes, no, you’re right. There’s always going to be some reason. And what’s interesting is though, and I was talking to my dad about this. My father was like, looks son, if you want to really create an impact, you’re not going to create an impact doing what everyone else has historically done, you have to do something different. When you think about historically the troublemakers, you talked about about the late Congressman Lewis rest in peace, you think about like our civil… You know we’re recording this in Black History Month. You think about literally every Black History Month hero that we have, is someone who defied conventional norms and did something different.

Luvvie (27:28): Exactly. Exactly. And again, like I’m so inspired by those who came before us because they had so many reasons to not do anything. They had so many reasons to just do self preservation and they chose courage in times when they literally could have been killed for the mere fact that they spoke up, for the mere fact that they showed up somewhere. I know we talk about police brutality now, but now we have social media to at least tell us this is happening. Back then they could be killed in the dark.

Zach (28:00): 100%.

Luvvie (28:02): They could be killed in the dark. And they still were like, you know what, what we want to put forward is still more important than what we’re afraid of. And if we say, you know, oftentimes people say stuff like I am my ancestor’s wildest dreams. Well, did our ancestors put themselves on the line constantly? Absolutely. So, then we also now have to charge ourselves up, like, all right, what are we doing? What’s the work that we need to do that’s going to make them even further proud?

Zach (28:29): I agree. And my hope, and I think about this Black History Month, it just being so unique and different. And in my mind for at least for my generation in my lifetime, in that, there’s been so much happening and documented, filmed and just like recorded to highlight inequities. And so, my hope is that we take this black history, we take this season, not just this month, but like really 2021, and we keep the momentum from a lot of things that were really highlighted in 2020 to create those systemic changes. Because sometimes I feel like, and Luvvie this is me, I feel like how much are we trying to push forward? And how much are we trying to maintain position? Those are two different fights.

Zach (29:16): If you’re looking to maintain position, you’re not necessarily going to do the same things if you’re looking to really continuing that tradition, that ancestral tradition of progress. And so, I’m excited about where we’re at and I just hope that we can continue to push forward. I think about legacy and ancestry a lot. You think about the people that came before you, it’s easy to kind of think that you’re the first person to have this idea or the first person to feel this passionately. It’s like, man, you’re standing on the shoulders of tons of folks that came before you. You know what I mean?

Luvvie (29:48): Exactly. Standing on shoulders of giants, who were just regular people who decided to do extraordinarily brave things. Like it is so inspiring to really read what they went through on a real. Like watching a movie about it and absorb the fact that the stakes were so much higher for them. So much higher. Yes, I’m just endlessly inspired.

Zach (30:16): Now look, I’m not asking you to give away a bunch of sauce on the book because it’s fire. And we want people to go get it. But I am going to ask you to expound upon one thing I read in the book that I just found it resonated with me because I practice this. You talk about, you recommend everyone having a Nigerian friend.

Luvvie (30:35): Yes, indeed.

Zach (30:36): Let’s talk about that. Now look, I have a plethora of Nigerians that I could shout out on this show and I might, depending on, I’m going to see what you give me. I might get excited and say a few names. But I love that, I want to hear you talk a little bit more about why you made that recommendation.

Luvvie (30:55): I mean, I just feel like everybody needs a Nigerian friend in their lives because insults are our love language. We will insult you, but we will passionately also cheerlead you, we just add extra type of spice in your life. You know what I mean? Like we bring extra flavor because Nigerians are just culturally super extra. We are just really extra people. Everything we do is extra. We party extra like our weddings last three, four days. It’s a whole color affair. We’re just really extra and I just think everybody needs a Nigerian friend. There’s so many of us. So you can find one.

Zach (31:34): You know what, I’m right there with you. First of all, shout out to all my Nigerians. I love you all. It was funny enough that my family did the thing and found out that a significant percentage of our ancestry is Nigerian. And so, it’s interesting to that end around just like I won as I got to Houston because I moved from Dallas and Houston has a high population, as I’m sure you know Luvvie, of Nigerians. Something about the way that they encourage, the time that they give and the truth. Like they’ll tell me the truth. Hurt my feelings a little bit sometimes, but they tell me the truth though. And I appreciate that. And I’ve learned a lot culturally from just talking to Amaka Azuku, Bobby Ode or Richard Ode, TJ Chessani. I have plenty of friends, Ayo, Oma Perriola, like Sola. Shoot. Ade, plenty of folks in my life. I think that’s super. I found that just such a unique bit of advice Luvvie. And I thought it was dope.

Luvvie (32:40): Thank you. I mean, look, it’s also kind of like a tongue in cheek chapter. I was just like, you know what? I got to gas up my Nigerians for a hot second. So, it was just an excuse for me to also put that in the book, and I loved writing that chapter. It was really fun for me.

Zach (32:52): It was fun to read.

Luvvie (32:54): Glad, glad.

Zach (32:55): Okay. So, now look I told you I’d get you up out of here in a reasonable amount of time. You’re dropping gems all the time. If you’re not on The Chatty House, if you’re not on Jesus and Jollof, if you’re not on Twitter, you’re dropping gems somewhere, doing something. So, before I let you go, what parting words do you have for folks as they continue to seek to grow and become professional troublemakers?

Luvvie (33:19): I think you’ve just got to commit to doing things scared. Just understanding that sometimes it’s not easy, but if it’s really important, if you are compelled to do it, if you can’t help yourself, you just got to do it scared.

Zach (33:33): I love that. Got to be comfortable being uncomfortable.

Luvvie (33:36): Absolutely.

Zach (33:37): Come on now. I appreciate you. You all make sure you check out Professional Troublemaker. You know we’ll talk about it on the outro as well, but check out the links in the show notes for the pre-order. Don’t be scared. In fact, be scared and buy the book any dog gone way. You know what I’m saying? You’re going to be off shaking.

Luvvie (33:53): Absolutely.

Zach (33:53): Your fingers are going to be shaking. Just press the little pre-order button. That’s all you got to do. Just press it. Get it on Kindle. Get it on hard copy. If you’re scared of hard copy, go ahead and embrace your fear and buy a hard copy version. If you’re scared of Kindle, embrace your fear of Kindle and buy the Kindle version. If you’re scared of having too many books, embrace the fear and buy a few copies of the books so you can gift to your friends.

Luvvie (34:14): Yes indeed. Alright. Thank you, Zach.

Zach (34:17): Thank you Luvvie. We’ll talk to you soon.

(34:24): Living Corporate is brought to you by The Access Point. The reality is, this is the largest influx of black and brown talent corporate America has ever had. And as a result, a variety of talent entering the workforce are first-generation professionals. The other reality? Most of these folks aren’t learning what it means to navigate a majority white workplace in their college classes, enter The Access Point. A live weekly web show within The Living Corporate Network that gives black and brown college students the real talk they need and likely haven’t heard elsewhere. Every week, our hosts and special guests are dropping gems. So, don’t miss out. Check out The Access Point, airing every Tuesday at 7:00 PM Central Standard, on

(35:11): And we’re back. First of all, again, shout out to Luvvie. Shout out to all my Nigerians. Love you all. Shouting some people out. You know what I’m saying? I shout out [?]. Ayo, shout out to you all. I appreciate you all. I’m thankful. I’m just thankful for where we’re at. It’s Black History Month. Happy Black History month again. Something to remember is that you all were making black history every day. If you’re showing up as your authentic self and despite all the systems and things that are pitted against you or rather not created with your success in mind, you still finish the day and you go back the next day. You’re making black history. Okay. So, stay encouraged and we’ll talk to you soon. Make sure you give us five stars and a review on Apple podcasts. Don’t be shy. Until next time you all, peace.

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