Zach sits down with Shane Lloyd, diversity and inclusion professional with extensive experience in the realm of higher education, to talk through the D&I landscape, Trump’s executive order, the future of the work, contextualizing data, and intersectional identity.
You can connect with Shane on LinkedIn.
Shane is also the board president of Class Action, a national nonprofit that inspires action to end classism. Learn more about them on the Class Action website.
SPEAKER 1 0:00
The best the diversity inclusion consultant can do is not avoid strong emotions, but provide people with framework and insight to make meaning of their emotions and transform strong emotions into concerted action to change this system.
SPEAKER 2 0:24
What’s up, y’all? It’s a sack with live in corporate and Happy New Year again, you know, we’re just coming off of what 12 days a podcast and we did the, you know, urine review kind of talking about where we’re going as a platform and the things that we’re working on things that we’re still excited to share with you all later this year, just as the year progresses. But this is like really like our first I’ll say like, kind of like back to regularly scheduled programming type show that we have for the New Year, right. If you’re here, you just probably heard, see it to be it. This is the first Real Talk Tuesday of the year. I’m really excited about it and the guests that we have Shane Lloyd, okay, so Shane Lloyd, and he’s a lot of different things. But ultimately, it’s just an incredible practitioner, and subject matter expert when it comes to diversity, equity inclusion, I truly like a Jedi in this space. And you’ll hear that as we talk about this various concepts and language that we typically throw around in the diversity equity inclusion world. So if you’re someone who is either new to DDI, or even has some chops and be looking to like sharpen their tools, my hope is this is an edifying and like helpful conversation that you’re able to listen in on. And I’m just really thankful for Shane, and the conversation you’re going to hear a little bit later. Before we get there, though, I want to talk a little bit about the concept of liberation. So y’all, it’s really important, as we engage in this year, that we’re asking ourselves, is this action, allowing me to be more or less free? Right? So when I say more or less free, or I say liberation, I really mean like, am I able to be myself more authentically in this space, I’m able to actually walk in authenticity here. I think a lot of times, and frankly, like, this is a function, I believe white supremacy, we and so when I say we, I’m talking about non-white folks, non-white or non-cisgender, non-straight, non-able bodied, non, whatever the case is, you know, differently abled. We kind of say, Okay, well, there’s only so much freedom we’re going to have in this space, because I’m not them. Right. But I think that that’s really problematic. And I also believe that we’re in a season where this is an era where we’re able to claim back parts of ourselves that we may be gave up on. And I think it’s important that you’re asking yourself, is this giving me more or less freedom? When I think about the world we live in, corporate is doing. And frankly, the work that diversity, equity inclusion should be doing, it should be for the liberation of marginalized, historically marginalized people. And that’s why we always are very specific when we say, black and brown, right, so black and brown indigenous people, if the work itself is not allowing, or empowering folks to be more of who they are, then the work is not valid. Right? So, you know, this whole idea around equity, and making sure people are represented and have actual power, not that they just are you patting them on the head or tap them on the back, but you’re actually giving them power to make decisions in an organization that you’re giving them a voice at the table. And not just a seat, quote unquote, at the table. That may or may not be an equal seat with everyone else’s, but you’re actually it’s about like, this whole redistribution of power through again, like roles and expectations and representation and authority and accountability. And the empowerment to like, hold other people accountable. You know, all these things tie back to liberation. Right? Unfortunately, I believe and I talked about this, you know, last week, is a lot of us don’t really want to be free. Like we, we see this whole thing is like a pyramid, right? And at the top at the very top part of the pyramid are white men. And so what we’re looking to do is kind of do like a swap. Right? So we want white men to be, you know, in the middle to the bottom where we are, and we want to be at the top. But that’s not actually liberation, y’all. That’s still oppression. We just want to swap seats. But when you think about true equity and you think about like the ultimate goal of liberating marginalized people, it doesn’t mean oppressing others, it doesn’t mean swapping seats with oppressors either, right? Like that’s, again, that’s just playing into like this patriarchal capitalistic system, where we’re thinking about things in the context of scarcity. It’s about really reimagining entire systems and structures. So that folks are able to just be, and I say all this to say, I’m really again, excited about this conversation, we’re going to have a chain. Because we get into that a bit. We talk a bit about programmatic, bi, where it needs to go, where we believe it is today. You know, we recorded this last year, so this was before the election. I think the reality of that, unfortunately, the same trumpism that was alive and well, pre November, is still here with us today. And I don’t think it’s going to go anywhere anytime soon. So this content is conversation is still very much so evergreen. Before we get to that conversation, we’re going to tap in with Tristan. And then from there, we’ll get to Shai. Want to hear something amazing. Discovery matches all the cashback you earn on your credit card at the end of your first year automatically, with no limit on how much you can earn. How amazing is that? 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SPEAKER 3 6:41
What’s going on living corporate, it’s Tristan and I want to thank you for tapping back in with me as I provide some tips and advice for professionals. It’s the New Year and many professionals began looking for new jobs during this time. Since we know that building utilizing and leveraging your network is the best way to land roles. I want to discuss three ways you can jumpstart your networking in the New Year, especially since we’re still doing most things virtually these days. First, follow or connect with your industry’s top voices on LinkedIn. These are the professionals driving LinkedIn conversations about your industry. By following them you can gain insight you may not have had before. By engaging with their posts, you can put yourself in front of decision makers and recruiters who may visit your profile and reach out. You may even encounter professionals that you can build relationships with that companies you want to work for paving the path for a referral down the road. Second, start posting on LinkedIn after hear from people who say they don’t know what to post on LinkedIn or scared to post on LinkedIn. But we have to get past that. I discussed things you can post on episode 281, tip number 83, LinkedIn algorithm prioritizes people who actively post and engage on the platform. That’s why when you log on to the site, you typically see posts from the same people. It’s because they understand the importance of value based engagement. The more often your name pops up in someone’s feed with engaging thought provoking motivation or even funny content, the higher your likelihood of being seen by the right people. Don’t forget that it’s just as important to thoughtfully engage with other people’s posts as it is to post your own content. The third and last tip is to start requesting informational interviews. For those who don’t know what an informational interview is, it is a meeting to learn about the real life experience of someone working in a field or company that interests you. The purpose of these conversations is to begin developing rapport with those people and to gain information that can help you tailor your resume, cover letter, LinkedIn or interview approaches. If you’re lucky, these interactions may lend you a referral for your ideal job. I discussed finding contacts or requests informational interviews on episode 186 Tip Number 53. And we talked about how to reach out to those contacts on episode 189. Tip number 54. We’ll be discussing the questions to ask during an informational interview and an upcoming tip. The New Year is a great time to jump into networking. Just make sure you’re strategic and whom you’re reaching out to and how you’re engaging them. Thanks for tapping in with me today. Talk to you again soon. This tip was brought to you by Tristan lay field, resume consulting, check us out on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at lay field. Resume or connect with me Tristan lay field on LinkedIn
SPEAKER 4 9:31
Shane what’s up, man? How you doing?
SPEAKER 5 9:33
I’m good. How about you?
SPEAKER 4 9:34
You know what I’m doing? Well, I’m doing well, and I look. So let’s do this. Let’s start off with, you know, looking at this moment, the work that you do. You know, how are you feeling?
SPEAKER 5 9:48
The work? Oh, that’s a huge question. So the moment that we’re in the work that I’m doing, and how am I feeling? So I would I would say it varies it varies. Quite frankly. So at the if we go with the early conversation in June, the murder of George Floyd, and how that created a watershed moment for moving the conversation beyond just bias and microaggressions, and inclusive leadership to companies actively talking about anti-racism. Now most companies do not have a firm handle on the definition of racism and what anti-racism truly means for their company. But at the very least, the word was being said, and the exploration was happening. And even in the midst of deep and profound tragedy that is not new to the black community, there was a greater deal of momentum and engagement and consciousness across the globe that was different in tenor and magnitude than what we had seen in recent memory. So that is powerful. And now we’re actually on the heels of the election. And just last month, the administration released its executive order banning so called controversial topics like critical race theory, intersectionality discussions of white privilege, and essentially proffered this red herring, of combating race and sex stereotyping, without ever acknowledging history, or who tends to hold concentrated power across time, and in the present day in most companies. So is asking for accountability, stereotyping, when the people that you’re trying to hold accountable have concentrated so much power in the hands of a few across a lot of different social identity markers, and still want to hold power over a diverse populace that is, you know, the United States. So given some of that context, you know, there’s reason to be hopeful, there’s reason to be anxious. And there’s reason to sort of be unrelenting, and the spirit of urgency. And as far as you know, the work that I’m doing, I think it’s a really interesting and complex place, because corporate diversity inclusion, in some ways can be the bellwether, sort of advancing and modelling how sort of inclusive practices can really meaningfully impact organizations and more deeply impact lives, like when people are able to get jobs that are connected with their passions and be compensated well, such as they have access to health care can put food on their table, and get access to a safe neighbourhood that really fundamentally transforms people’s lives. And how companies can redirect resources to communities that have previously been locked out of their organizations sort of history and compensation trajectories that is very, very powerful work, while also acknowledging that sometimes corporate America is not the bellwether, it is actually quite lagging behind in certain places in spaces. So really having us think not just sort of what can I do at the individual level, but also what is the history of diversity inclusion, and its own either sort of change advancement, or complicity in the status quo are important topics that we should all be exploring.
SPEAKER 4 13:01
And so, you know, you think about is interesting, I think about this executive order, and like the things that they banned. So part of me right, in my just, I felt I do feel like sometimes I just think about stuff, a little different and or maybe I’m just really pessimistic or both. But like, I think about, like, the things that they banned, or how or how they framed the executive order. It’s like, you know, what, I don’t even actually even need those words, to talk about the things that we need to be talking about, right? Like DNI at from a corporate tax context has become so whitewashed and like, white centered that. I don’t know, there’s something about like, there’s something about like how white academia and just whiteness has entrenched itself within this space, that has really undermined the very work or purpose of the space itself. I think that there’s something to be said about. Why do I have to say this? Why do I have to use the term white fragility, or even white privilege? Like why can’t we just speak to the reality of systems of power without using like these, like, am I and I’m not trying to demonize academia, but like, I don’t know. Like, there’s what I think there’s ways to talk about all this work and still be impactful and actually be maybe in certain ways be more impact.
SPEAKER 5 14:20
Right, I think that you make a very, very good point, because part of it too, is that one, the executive board is quite vague in some respects. The other part too, is that the fact that we don’t have shared definitions of racism bias, white supremacy, privilege even speaks to the fact that words can sometimes be quite Mercurial. And we as individuals, we as organizations actually do need to spend some time not just working off of shared assumptions, but really come to at the at a minimum shared agreement around like the frame of analysis. So to your point, I think of dog whistle politics, and you know, dog whistle politics being the phenomenon that coded language is used to appeal to people who have racist ideologies. And it’s sort of very alluring and sort of covert. The idea of using coded language to get your point isn’t in and of itself inherently bad, because we could see your point, we could also be using coded language to sort of continue to advance these conversations, even as a sort of select set. Now, the open question or the asterisk, rather, is, are we sort of watering things down, diminishing the integrity of the work if we’re not able to use certain terms. And to that, I would say, we’ve always been using negotiated terms to be in conversation with the people who are in power. When I think about the concept of unconscious bias, yes, there is a neurological basis to unconscious bias. And we also have to acknowledge to that if people want it to be quite rigid around their conversations around neuroscience and unconscious bias, then maybe they’d exclusively be working with academics in neuroscience to have the conversation. But they’re not just working with neuroscientists, they’re also working with social psychologists, diversity inclusion consultants, like me and the like. So it just goes to speak to the fact that in some respects, the term unconscious bias is more of a social lubricant to get people to have a conversation around difficult subjects than it is sort of solely grounded in the mechanics and logistics of sort of bias as a sort of neurological process. Additionally, when we talk about terms like microaggressions, microaggressions, the people who are impacted by them, those are not micro, those are pretty bad, and pretty painful. So we’ll even add in that sort of micro part, what we’re saying is, we’re negotiating terms with people who do not want more accurate terms to reflect the impact of their actions. So if racist, is a bad word, because people think of it as an attack on their very identity, which I think a legislative official said recently on TV, like racist is the worst thing you can say to an American, I’m thinking Well, have you considered how many people who have been called racists have met the end of their lives, compared to people who have received the N word and their direction, you know, so even the sort of like implicit authorization of who is American, it’s a white reference person.
SPEAKER 4 17:10
You know, it’s interesting, too, because like, I think that’s, I think, this also highlights that there’s been this accepted and again, like, I think, like white standard by which we, we do diversity and inclusion, right. And so the scary reality is that there still is no standard vanguard of doing the work still. Right. And I think like this moment, to your point earlier about being a watershed moment highlights that is that, you know, the murder of George Floyd really typifies this season, where organizations are hiring folks like Dr. Mengele, I’m sure you’ve seen a spike in requests. You know what I mean? Like there’s been all kinds of folks scrambling and hiring chief diversity officers for the first time or folks quitting and getting whole new HR organizations. I think what I’m curious about is Shane, like, you’re a black man, you’re showing up in these spaces. You’re not only a black man, its one part of your multifaceted identity. But I’m curious about just how does your black maleness impact or shape the way that you show up in this work, not only as you deliver work for clients, but as you work with your colleagues?
SPEAKER 5 18:25
Yeah, so that’s an excellent, excellent question. So I would say that there are some caveats I want to add in black maleness with a high salience of blackness. So I think that we would credit all black men because not all black men are service. So I think that’s aliens piece is critically important. And I also have to acknowledge that I had the great fortune and privilege to work in a very blackity black Cultural Center, the Yale Afro American cultural center before I sort of deeply pivoted into sort of corporate diversity inclusion, although some could argue that Yale despite being an institution of higher education, which is purportedly a non-profit is quite corporate. But as far as my black maleness, how it sort of comes into play is it offers are really, really valuable lens in which I can sort of see and understand different dynamics and thinking about not just sort of what my black maleness means to me, but also what it means from the vantage point of social assignment. Because when I think of people who say, well, we’re all human, I’m like, yes, we are all human, but I need you to consider how I’m treated by other people. Not just how you think you treat me or how I even think about myself that that third dimension is really critically important and specifically what we’re aiming to address. So I think that part of what I experienced, so let me do it from a few ways. So as a black male who’s in the diversity inclusion profession. I think there’s this interesting double edged sword because some in the diversity inclusion space, we with the understanding that people who do diverse inclusion work are quite diverse. I’ve even had people say to me, like, oh, you’re a black man. So people are going to believe you more when it comes to conversations around diversity inclusion, compared to the white person, which is so interesting, because I think of when we think about the work of inclusion, let’s also look at the dollars who is making the most money through speaking engagements, who is getting the most business who’s growing companies around the concept, diversity inclusion, compared to others who might have been doing this work, either in education, activist spaces, sort of places that are not sort of corporate, quite frankly. So I think that has to be sort of considered, because people might have me do a keynote, but no one’s charging $20,000 from a time just yet, as a point of comparison, and then as far as engagement with clients, I think it’s interesting. So I think there are some clients, the clients who are sort of focused on mutuality, reflective action, I say reflective action, because many organizations we work with have a strong bias towards action, they actually tackle. They tackle diversity and global racism, rather like a math problem, what formula and it should equal x. And when we’re talking about something that is historic, cumulative, and ever evolving, the math is going to work out all the time. So I need to be comfortable in shades of gray. And if we’re going to play in shades of gray, then I can’t just have you taken any old action, I need your action to be coupled with intentionality and most important reflection, reflection of self, but also the history of your industry and organization, to give you the backdrop to both understand the complexity and the urgency, and how what you’re actually going to need to do is engage in some individual action that’s also accented with systemic and institutional sort of like power. Now, I will find that some organizations are willing to hear it. And some organizations that I’ve worked with this past summer are still in this perennial question of, well, you know, I still don’t know what to do. And quite frankly, I say, if this conversation started in June, and it is now October, and you still don’t know what to do in your own individual life, I just need you to know that you are actively resistant, you are not just confused, you’re not intellectualizing, you’re not just engaging in sort of information seeking you, as someone who has not figured out at the individual level, what you can do to meaningfully improve the conditions of the black people in your life, whether they be your co-workers or black people out in the community, if you have not figured out what to do, you are resistant, you might be a more polite form of resistant, you may be a more passive form resistance, but you are, in my opinion, squarely in the path of resistance. So as a consultant to be able to say that to some people, and have them receive that impact and help them course correct. That is very, very, very powerful. And then I think a third trajectory is also just the acknowledgement that when we think about diversity inclusion, people talk about black people in theory, but we are still not the reference people. And by that, I mean to your earlier point around, I think the field has not only been whitewashed to the extent of how in some ways we have sort of a very soft approach, or an a hyper concern with we don’t want people to feel guilt and shame, or we don’t want people to be defensive and reacted. And when I acknowledges that one, human beings should be mature enough to handle their own complex emotions. And the best of diversity inclusion consultant can do is not avoid strong emotions, but provide people with framework and insight to make meaning of their emotions, and transform strong emotions into concerted action to change the system. That is what we need to do this whole idea of like, pussyfooting around like particular terms or subjects. I personally don’t think that’s particularly helpful, necessarily. But the other way that I think that whiteness comes in is that very few diversity inclusion consulting firms will admit that not only are they exclusively working with like, largely white audiences, but their customer, they’re the sort of like a reference person is a white person. And I would argue that the more mature, sophisticated and powerful sort of diversity inclusion consulting firms either have the idea that in centering the most vulnerable, will be able to lift the floor for everyone, or at a minimum, acknowledging that white people are not the only people who are sitting in our sessions.
SPEAKER 4 24:25
Well, you know, so to your point, I think the last thing you said around by centering the most vulnerable, like, I think every population has the challenge, right? So like, you think about within black spaces, you know, if we sent her a black Trans women within our own efforts, then everyone would benefit, right? But there’s this desire, I think, just to like rule over and like, again, a scarcity mind-set to like, no, there’s only so much power to be had, there’s only so much x or y to be had. So I got to make sure that I protect me in mind. And so I think to your point around like how organizations, like just not dealing with the reality or the truth of power of whiteness? And like really dismantling systems like, have you thought through? Or have you had any thoughts about kind of like, what you’re not just you, as someone in this space, but just broader to just diversity and inclusion initiatives and efforts over the next 18 months? And is that dependent on either Trump or the Biden, Harris ticket winning?
SPEAKER 5 25:32
Let’s see. It reminds me of a conversation I once had with a journalist back in 2016, when Trump got elected, so I was working in the black Cultural Center at Yale at the time, and a journalist asked me, they said, Are you going to be changing your program with the election of Trump? And I said, well, if you know much about black history, Trump might be sort of an evolution in racism. But that new to the black experience, and anyone who’s sort of learned in black history with see that parallel to sort of anti-racist advancement is also racist advancement. So when we think of sort of reconstruction, and the black legislators, black politicians, and then white terrorism and social violence sort of coming up very quickly, or thinking about the Harlem Renaissance, a period of incredible intellectual and artistic and cultural sort of renaissance of black intellectuals, at the same time as the red summer, these sort of parallel tracks are already running through. So if Trump gets re-elected, things will certainly get profoundly worse. But that wouldn’t necessarily change a consistent dynamic that is defining a black life, where we are also sort of thriving, surviving and persevering, while also combating and trying to remain vigilant about forces that have been sort of like waiting to put us right back into sort of like chattel slavery, even if not by law, but through sort of covert actions or undermining policies and laws and the like. So with that context, I think for the next 18 months, there are a few ways to think about it. I think that corporate diversity inclusion organizations, regardless of who wins should already be in some kinds of conversations with people who are local to their communities who are also engaged in activism, because even corporate diversity inclusion is a part of a legacy of sort of liberty and justice. We might not be viewed as radical, we may not be as sort of direct as we could be, but we are still within that legacy. So we need to really keep those channels of communication open, because we have access to certain spaces that sometimes activists do not. So how are we all sort of doing a coordinated job of playing our part? Now, if the Bible Harris ticket wins, then the conversation is actually going to be in some respects, hardened different way. I think the challenge of the administration right now is that not only are they engaging in sort of like active violence against communities of color, domestically and globally, they’re also gas lighting us into sort of making us feel like what we’re seeing is not in fact real. The other aspect that’s also happening as people are seeing this and realizing, oh, wait, the government is now occupying a position where they’re not sort of at the forefront of civil rights and sort of inclusive sort of legislation. So now we have to rely on other social forces, whether they be corporate America, non-government organizations, people most mobilizing on the ground to sort of like force the government’s hand. I think that wakefulness is actually pretty useful, because I think of how many of us as Americans have might have been so comfortable letting someone else take care of the work such that we weren’t necessarily doing our specific part because we had gotten sort of a lord into someone else will take care of it. The Arc of justice always bends in the right direction. It’s like no, in order to bend something, someone needs to apply pressure and force an infraction. And when it’s when someone stops doing that, the pendulum swings back into the other direction. So I think one of the consequences is that hopefully we maintain, well, frankly, I hypervigilance, like we are going to be more vigilant citizens around sort of politics, and the pressures we apply to people not just when we elect them, but throughout their sort of process of service, and probably even reconsidering, what do we do when government doesn’t actually function? Because government is ill equipped to manage male actors, because I’m stunned by the degree of political officials who are like, well, this will all work out and I’m like, Yo, this is actually not working out and we’ve let the we are entirely trusting and also progressing. The other part to the Biden Harris ticket wins. What I’m concerned about with the election of Biden and Harris, is that people are going to assume Oh, I cast my vote. Trump is no longer in power. And now I can go back to sort of live in my life. And I’m like, No, no, no, no, whether it’s a Biden Harris ticket or a Trump pence ticket, we all still need to be very, very vigilant. And what we’re aiming to do, or what people are aiming to do in sort of ousting Trump, is to mitigate harm for those who are most severely impacted, and don’t have platforms like the two of us do, to actually lend voice to how we’re experiencing these situations. And I think with the Biden Harris ticket, not only will people become less vigilant, they’ll kind of just, you know, return to the status quo, which is going to create another dilemma, because we will not have leveraged some of this power of momentum, to really sort of push through the legislation that we need to really, you know, keep a liberty and just frame of reference at the forefront of all that we’re doing.
SPEAKER 4 30:50
So like, so first of all, these incredible answer. And so I appreciate you taking the time to speak. I’m curious, you know, what do you believe organizations should be doing in the in between time before the election is determined? And then after the election is determined, like what if you had to get let’s just say three things executive leaders within their organizations should be thinking about, as it pertains to creating inclusive, equitable, and, and, and just cultures at their workplaces? Where would those things be?
SPEAKER 5 31:25
First, I would say that organizations need to actually contextualize some of the data that they’re tracking. So when I think of the big tech companies, for example, tracking all their data about, you know, rates of attrition rates of promotion, the composition of their workforces, what I oftentimes find is that data is just comparing internally to the organization based on some pass passing benchmark, but they’re not actually contextualized in the data. So for example, the Institute for Policy Studies in 2016, calculated that it will take 228 years to close the black white wealth gap. When you hear a big number, like 228 years, you realize that it’s not just getting black people into high income jobs, levels of education, family structure, and the like. The like that actually requires some pretty profound intervention. So when you use comparative statistics like that, to contextualize the data, it reminds people of some of the urgency around why this work needs to continue to stay at the forefront of people’s minds. And even when we think about comparative statistics, I think more organizations should definitely you know, when the big banks are saying I’m donating a billion dollars to racial justice. Great. You are donating a billion dollars. But what is the number of wages lost to black people from slavery through Jim Crow, through present day covert workplace discrimination? That’s actually over $70 trillion.
SPEAKER 4 32:52
Say it again, say it again for everybody, because I know, some people might be you know, doing whatever they’re doing. They might be listening this casually run that back.
SPEAKER 5 32:58
Oh, yeah. So when we think yes, yes, continue to donate billions of dollars. Yes. And consider what is the total sort of amount of lost wages to black people from slavery through Jim Crow, through employment discrimination, to covert employment discrimination to the present day that is over $70 trillion. That is a lot of money. So that’s not to say that people should not be donating billions. But don’t pat yourself on the back and think that the compensation is over, just because you’re doing a billion. Now I need you to coordinate with the rest of the banks. So they can, you know, open up these dollars and then go to Switzerland, to have them sort of add to the pool as well. So that one sort of contextualize the data, to have focused conversation with your managers about how to be vigilant for how racism or social oppressions play out on their teams. I think what’s timing things profoundly, is a lot of managers over the course of their developing their identity and their managerial practice, have not actually had to have explicit conversations around race and racism. Therefore, they do not actually have the facility not just to have the conversations, but to even disrupt racism when it’s happening in their very eyes. And part of the frustration black professionals are having me included is that some of y’all think we’re going on a first date. But we’re actually heading into divorce proceedings. And by that, I mean, I already have a record in my head, or maybe on paper, depending on the professional, I have interactions of bias, prejudice and discrimination that happened right in front of all of our eyes. But none of you notice that. So if you just sort of think this, these conversations are just about your own learning and to help you be a better human, as if there actually hasn’t been a past record of things that had been ignored, or improperly handled or outright not addressed. Then we have to figure out how to not just close that perception gap, but actually address that sort of record. That’s two and then the third one is I think from this day forward, no organization should be promoted to management, or even senior leadership, anybody who doesn’t have a proven track record, and demonstrated track record of facilitating meaningful inclusion, like being a champion and advocate for diversity, inclusion, but then also disrupting prejudice and discrimination. And part of the reason I say both, is because sometimes we say, Oh, well, if they’re an advocate for diversity, they’re doing that work. No, sometimes people are advocates of diversity, and they’re only talking about racial harmony, it is not simply through friendship, that we’re going to solve these deep systemic issues, that’s part of the work, the other part of the work is actually really meaningfully undoing systems that are already sort of wreaking havoc covertly, on black people and other marginalized people. So that definitely means that people are going to need to build up their courage, people are going to need to develop their facility around identifying when sort of like prejudice bias is sort of like peeking out, if not being enacted, and actually having a track record of disrupting that. And if they don’t have that they should not have responsibility over diverse professionals, frankly,
SPEAKER 4 36:11
I love that. I love that man. So you know, you know, you, you sound like you do this for a living, you know, this is this. Okay? There’s so much to be said about the fact that like, folks do not, and this human nature, right, like we do not like discomfort, right? There’s a certain level of danger that we feel when we’re not comfortable. And you’re right, when it comes to this work. You talk about everything inclusion is often taught trying to figure out ways to get everybody to get along, get everybody to get along, everybody to feel okay. But without having any uncomfortable conversations about the direct harm that people are experiencing, and not experiencing in a theoretical frame. But by experiencing in practical, real, tangible ways, by the hands of the folks that you work with. It’s like, I can’t tell you how many discussions I’ve had with folks who reached out to me earlier this summer, saying like, I can’t, you know, I can’t imagine how you feel blah, blah, I hope that you’re doing you and your community are okay. And I’m like, yo, why don’t you even talk to me? Like, do you remember what you did to me? Can we have a conversation? Like, why don’t you try to talk to me about something way out there when you harmed me, personally? And so what I’m trying to do saying this, oh, no, you can talk to therapists, you know, this is not and by the way, but um, you know, I typed in my little information, I put it on the pattern, you know, the pattern is kind of crazy, that app, that mental health app, using the level of like, how they’d be reading me, it’s just eerie. But, but I put my stuff in man and I, you know, I have a coach and I have, you know, therapists and stuff like that you talk to so I’m going to try to do a better job of is not taking, like racial incompetence? Maliciously, all the time. Right? Sometimes folks are just genuinely incompetent, and or they have their own things that they’re hiding from, or like they have not addressed internally. So then why would you expect them to be able to address it with you like they haven’t been able to address those things with themselves? Right? At the same time, it doesn’t change in those moments. It’s like, Oh, this really is frustrating because it feels like almost like, like racial gas lighting to a degree, you know what I mean? Hmm. So then let’s do this. We know there’s been a dope conversation before we let you go. Man, I want you to plug what you got going on, what you’re excited about where people can learn more about you all of that.
SPEAKER 5 38:36
Oh, thanks. You know, people can find me on LinkedIn, Shane Lloyd. And then in addition to being a consultant at cook, Grace, great work. I’m also the board president of an organization called class action, which is a non-profit organization that enters into diversity inclusion, through the lens of reflection around socioeconomic class status. And conversations around sort of like economics and class can sometimes be challenging conversations, because many people rightfully assume that Oh, are you about to use that line of analysis and argumentation to dismiss racism, or other aspects of oppression. And what I’m really proud of with class action is that we actually fundamentally operate from a sort of intersectional race class analysis. So if you start with the lens around class, for example, you are going to eventually run into a road that looks at the relationship between, you know, for every dollar of wealth a white family has a family of color has 10 cents, or heard of gender pay gap, which is especially pernicious when we look at the numbers for black Latina x and indigenous women. So we sort of operate from the perspective that class is one way to enter and one way in which to sort of strategize and can continue to sort of be something that is intersectional and sort of addressing and acknowledging how there’s an interlocking and reinforcing Nature across different systems of oppression. So that’s kind of the work that I’m doing. And I definitely operate from the standpoint of, despite growing up in a very sort of like middle class neighbourhood in New York, I operate from the perspective of if you have nothing nice to say, please sit next to me. Because if you’re mad about it, we should chat about it, so we can figure it out and solve it.
SPEAKER 4 40:23
Shane, you know what, hold on now. So now, and I know I’m doing like my little wrap up thing. You just said something that’s a system at the top of this interview that I kind of I agreed with, like I kind of a ministry, but I didn’t really talk about. So two things. First off, you said, all black men are not showing up for as long as we need to be. And that’s big facts. And then you kind of went back just now about race and class. Can we talk a little bit? I mean, so I’m not trying to pathologize? Or like, definitely, I’m trying to like, group all black men in one space? Can we just have a conversation about the fact that like, I mean, some anecdotal evidence of my own experience, and then I want to kind of get, okay, so, historically, for me, most black folks that have helped me in my career have been black women, I would say, out of all the black men that I’ve talked to, that I’ve worked with, that I’ve engaged with, interacted with, including black men who I’ve asked to be on live in corporate, I’m not going to say your name, because, you know, we’re not big enough to be spicy, and wait until I’m a little bigger, but one day, I’m going to be spicy. They just don’t show up in the same ways, right? I’m curious to get like your perspective, like on how like the intersection of blackness, expressed gender identity, and class, inform how we treat one another within these hyper white contexts. Like, because everyone does not show up the same for everybody. Right? Like, we’re not a monolith. And I also just don’t know, I don’t know if I’ve seen diversity and inclusion efforts ever really, like seek to do the work of like dissecting? That. I mean, I didn’t even talk about like, you know, the diaspora, right. Like, you know, you know, everyone isn’t, isn’t a black American on top of that. So I’m curious about like, if you’ve ever had any thoughts about that?
SPEAKER 5 42:09
Oh, yeah. All the time. So I think, like, just yesterday, I was revisiting the Combahee River collective statement, because it offers a really sort of powerful framework in which we can analyze how to think about these issues like these were black, queer woman, coming together to figure out how to actually address the politics that were literally impacting their everyday sort of lives. And not just in the sort of standpoint of civil rights movement, which was really operationalized as liberation for black men, even as they were enacting patriarchy, and sexism and homophobia, on all manner of people. And then the sort of women’s rights movement that was really sort of operationalized as like, not all white women, even It was really just white elite women, like, Why are you standing in the way of the things that the rights and privileges I should have not just as a white person, but also a white person who has sort of access to capital and the like. So when I think of intersectionality, as a concept, and the sort of contours of sort of race, gender, and class, that is some of the text that I think of, and then from an operational perspective, that’s why I wanted to make sure to sort of lift up the idea of aliens, because I am someone who’s pretty proud of to be black person, I have worked in a black Cultural Center alongside other black people who are trying to create community where we can sort of be our whole and full selves, and not just celebrate our heritage, but also do some profound unlearning of some of the meaning that we’ve made of our experiences that have been internalized oppression within us to say that, you know, oh, in order to be in a certain space, I have to Pico speak a certain way, get a certain credential have certain platform. So most people probably don’t dig into the sort of weeds with this. But because I think about it, I do, I guarantee that some substantial portion of black professionals in diversity inclusion might actually be the second or third generation in their family to have a college degree. Now, we do have to acknowledge that only 25 to 30% of Americans across race have a bachelor’s degree over the age of 25. But we also have to acknowledge that that is a significant and profound sort of, like, class dynamic. And what does it mean, if many of us have multiple degrees, or particularly sort of proximity to elite institutions that gave us access to certain tables? And it’s sort of like well look at someone so they have this degree from Princeton, Yale, Stanford, all this other stuff without acknowledging well, those are the same institutions that had a long history of anti-Semitism, racism and broadly elitism. So they practices of exclusion were not actually initially organized around a meritocracy, they were organized around this idea of invidious discrimination, meaning, I think of you insert group as inferior to like a Brahmin, for example. So I think that we have to acknowledge that as we might take pride for working hard for our accomplishments, we also have to acknowledge that we’re sort of like playing in landscapes that are still sort of very white dominant in their sort of lens and way of orienting. And when I think of, sort of intersectional lens, we have to be able to not only talk about us as individuals, but the systems that confer privilege and disadvantage.
SPEAKER 4 45:43
Goodness, great Shane. Incredible. Look, this has been a great conversation and shout out to you change. That’s all the work you’re doing. Y’all make sure you look in the show notes. Okay. This has been Zach, you know, we’re doing every single week we’re having these conversations, sending an amplifying black and brown voices at work. So until next time, you’ve been listening to Shane and Lloyd consultant, educator, speaker, truth speaker, speaker to power, what else? Overall dope guy. You know, I’m saying great teeth, and great glasses. And we’ll catch y’all later, y’all. Peace.
SPEAKER 5 46:17
SPEAKER 2 46:23
And we’re back. Yo, I want to thank Shane Lloyd for being on the show. I want to thank Tristan, as always, listen, y’all, there’s plenty of different ways to support live in corporate. We have some very all of them are free, actually. So the first thing you can do is just tell a friend about us. Right? So just share this link and like put it in your WhatsApp put in your group I put it in your text chain. I don’t know if you’re still out there trying to do the loom. Typically people do that loom thing where they scam it. But you know, tell your loom circle, if you’re still doing loom, or whatever it is you’re doing, you’re trying to like flip the money when the idea broke. But y’all do it still because you’re trying to. I mean, it’s desperate times I get I’m not trying to shame anybody. Because that stimulus package is looking crazy. I don’t know, I don’t even know if I’m going to get it. To be honest. That’s his whole sign though. But I’m just saying like, y’all know, Emory is like, almost 10 months. Now I need that I need that snipping. Where was I? Right? So there’s plenty of ways to port live in corporate. So first thing is you can tell people about living corporate, just sharing the link the other way. The other thing you can do is give us five stars, right on Apple podcasts. And you can give us six stars if you do what? Give us a review. That’s from ABC wanted to do a shout out to me that was a great like, a little thing that she put together for us. Yeah, you know, it’s five star, but it’s six doctor review. But now for like, please give us some reviews, I can tell I’m looking at the numbers, things like the mid is the middle selling and the high packet sell. And so y’all are into this, right. So I know I’m looking at these numbers. So it shouldn’t be nothing for y’all to just slide over to Apple podcast, drop us five stars, I’m going to do a better job of reading the five star reviews. But just know that like, I appreciate it, and we need it. It helps us tremendously. Let’s see here, you know, you can follow us on all social media, right? So live in corporate and on Instagram Live in corporate underscore pod on Twitter. And, you know, you can also just email us like, if you want to like some of the listener letter, you want to hear what we got going on, or you want to kind of get some advice from us. But you can email us at living corporate firstname.lastname@example.org. Let’s see here. Next week. We’re coming back with the access point or a trailer and cut all that out. This month, we’re coming back with the access point, right. So the access point for those who don’t know or not familiar, the access point is a weekly web show focused on preparing Black and Brown College students for the workplace. And then we’re coming back with the group chat. The group chat is a show every other Saturday live, where we talk about like various real work life topics related to diversity, equity inclusion, but we’re not hitting you with a bunch of academic jargon like we’re actually just talking to you. Like just keeping a straight up with you. Right, so we have some wild topics this season. And some incredible guests shout out to Ellen McGirt. I see you over there at fortune doing your thing. But no, you know, that’s just a little sneak peek. We have wild guests. I’m serious, incredible guest’s panellists. Just excited about the show. Shout out to the team. Until next time, I will catch you this has been Zach live in corporate. And one last time shout out to Shane Lloyd. Catch y’all later. Peace.
SPEAKER 6 49:45
Living corporate is a podcast, living corporate LLC. Our logo was designed by David Dawkins. Our theme music was produced by Ken Burns. Additional music production by Anton Franklin from musical elevation post production is handled by Jeremy Jackson. Got a topic suggestion. Email us at living corporate email@example.com. You can find us online on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and living dash corporate.com Thanks for listening. Stay tuned.