Zach sits down with Shonnah Hughes, Global Product Growth & Innovation Evangelist and Salesforce MVP, to chat about GetFeedback’s efforts regarding racial equity, inclusion, and belonging. She breaks down her very unique job title and more in this follow-up episode to our interview with SurveyMonkey CEO Zander Lurie.
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Zach: What’s up, y’all? It’s Zach with Living Corporate, and you know what we’re doing, right? Every single week we’re having real talk in a corporate world, and we do that how? We do that by having conversations with Black and brown executives, activists, elected officials, public servants, authors, professors, shoot, CEOs, entrepreneurs, influencers, celebrities. You know, just having real conversations trying to, in those conversations, center and amplify the experiences of those on the margins, and I’m really excited because, again, every week we have an incredible guest, and this week we have Shonnah Hughes. Shonnah Hughes is the global product growth and innovation evangelist at GetFeedback by SurveyMonkey and is a Salesforce MVP, okay? She is passionate about tech equity, accessibility, equality, and customer experience. Shonnah, welcome to the show. Now, look, I know this is a loaded question, but I’m gonna ask you anyway – how are you doing?
Shonnah: Yeah, that’s a loaded question. I’m–you know, I’m alive. I think, you know, we’ve gotta be grateful we wake up every morning and take a breath, and, you know, I’m optimistic, so I’ll leave it at that.
Zach: Okay, what are you optimistic about?
Shonnah: I’m optimistic about our future. I am so excited to see so many young people that are standing up and fighting for social justice, equity and equality. I am just in awe of their grit, their determination, them being unapologetically who they are, and I’m here for it.
Zach: I love it. First, let’s just talk a little bit about your role at GetFeedback. Like, I’m looking at the title, “global product growth and innovation evangelist,” and I’m like “Okay, what does that mean?” What do you do?
Shonnah: It’s a mouthful, right? I know. Everyone always asks me what I do. What’s interesting or what’s funny is that, you know, the people closest to me still don’t know what it is that I do, which is so funny. My mom thought for a while that I was, you know, drug trafficking because I was traveling so much.
Zach: You know… I mean, you know, I can’t knock your mom, you know?
Shonnah: She was like, “I don’t know anybody that travels as much as you do.” Okay, Mom. Well, with my position I sit at the intersection of product development and product marketing, right? So my job is all about growing awareness of our product in the Salesforce ecosystem. So whether that be I’m at events, I’m speaking about product center services, I’m speaking about our commitment to diversity and inclusion efforts, I am essentially the face of the product if that helps out a little bit.
Zach: It does, it does. And shout-out to you and you being the face, because I love your brand, right? I looked at your LinkedIn picture. You know, I do my little research, and I was like, “Oh, snap, I love this, and she got this hair. This is fire. I’m all for it,” ’cause, you know, when we promote this episode, we’re gonna take, you know, a headshot, and that’s gonna be, like, the thing. And this is not even self-promotion… or maybe it is ’cause it’s, like, our platform? I don’t know, but the point is you go to Living Corporate’s website and you look at the grid, you just see all of these Black and brown faces, so I love the fact that you said that you’re the face and you’re the main point of engagement. It’s also interesting because typically, at least in my experience, it seems like–you know, when you talk about diversity, equity and inclusion, sometimes there are organizations that have a lot of–they may have a decent amount of Black folks there, but they’re not necessarily touching the register so to speak. Like, they’re not the ones necessarily, like, pushing the product or, like, directly interfacing with the market or clients, and so I find this all very intriguing, right? Continuing forward, you know, it’s interesting because GetFeedback, by the nature of its organization, is focused on feedback. So, like, can we talk a little bit about this season and how, if at all, the internal culture of GetFeedback has shifted regarding marginalized employees feeling empowered to speak truth to power and leaders being receptive to those uncomfortable points of feedback?
Shonnah: Yeah, thank you for that question. You know, when I came on board, it was interesting because they had their, you know, ERG set up, and they kind of tapped me and said, “Hey, I think it’ll be great for you to be involved. We know how your reputation is in the community, and we think it’ll be a great voice to have you involved,” and I was like, “Sure, just let me try to get my footing here, figure out what’s happening,” and then this season–so essentially I’m coming on board, and then all of this chaos starts happening, right, or it continues to happen from our perspective, but it starts from theirs, if that makes sense. So, you know, I’m like, “Wow, this is taking on a lot of responsibility,” because I not only have my position, but I also am being asked to take on this additional position, and the leadership has been phenomenal, and when I say, you know, they call our leadership team VP level and above, they call them “the horizon team,” and our horizon team, they have been phenomenal. Now, when you look at our horizon team, they’re not diverse. Like, no one’s gonna pretend like there’s anyone on the horizon team that looks like you and I or any other, you know, under-represented candidate. However, they have made a commitment to take on a mantle to essentially make sure that marginalized people at work feel not only valued but included and also represented. So putting in places, policies, and procedures on what we call now the racial justice task force in our org where I’m in constant contact with our CEO, with other leaders in our organization, making sure that our hiring practices, our retention practices, are matching what we’re saying out to the world that we’re actually doing in house. So holding them accountable, and they’ve been 100% open with that internally and also externally. So it’s been amazing to see that transformation.
Zach: I mean, what would you attribute to that, though? What would you attribute that change to?
Shonnah: Yeah, it’s a combination of things I believe. You know, the world came to a standstill. The entire world, right, with corona, with the pandemic. People were stuck in place, and then Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, then George Floyd, you know? We didn’t find out about Ahmaud Arbery until after George Floyd, which is another issue within itself. However, when you publicly, or you broadcast out to the world, this murder of this man who was being literally tortured and pleading for his life on camera, and you can see this for 8 minutes and 46 seconds. 8 minutes you’re sitting here watching someone die? I believe that because the world stopped and because you’re able to see that and you’re able to feel that, it gave you space to be able to breathe in what we’ve been breathing in for centuries, and now you can digest that, and now you can be like, “Oh, man. This stuff really happens.”
Zach: Yeah. No, I mean, it’s curious because, to your earlier language, you used a word that I rarely hear organizations use, which is “justice.” So you talked about justice, and you’re having these conversations. I’m curious, like, when you say justice, does that include organizational justice? Does that include–if there are situations where there are folks, you know, it turns out that they have been harmed in some way, does that include also making sure that they’re advocated for and supported and protected?
Shonnah: 100%. Now, to say that the organization does it perfectly and that they aren’t gonna make any mistakes, you know, you’d be stupid to think that, right? But for example, we had a BDR, which is a business development representative, that had some racial slurs basically said to him, and, I mean, it was the most disgusting and vile language that you can imagine and think of from a prospective client, and even though the organization didn’t handle it like you or I would, right–there’s just some things that we, you know… we will, I will say, immediately act upon, right, but being a public organization, when you think about business, you have to think about there are certain things you can’t say or do or it opens you up for, you know, additional risk, et cetera. However, even though I was upset and didn’t agree with how they initially handled the situation, I do believe that they made up for it with how they then progressively handled the situation, you know, all the way from the CEO down to the individual manager. They made him feel like he was protected and like it was going to be, and it was, handled, if that makes sense.
Zach: No, absolutely. And I think that’s the–you know, we talk about it from time to time on Living Corporate, but I do think that that’s the underlying tension with all of this. Like, when it comes to real accountability, just how capitalism is [weaved?] all through it, right? So you can’t–quote-unquote “can’t,” ’cause you can do a lot of things, but you can’t quote-unquote say or handle things as they frankly should be handled because there are financial implications to it. But I don’t know. I guess I’m waiting for an organization to straight burn a bridge in the name of Black equity, right? Like, ’cause what’s the point? Like, are you serious? Like, I get it, ’cause you’re saying you’re gonna miss out X amount of millions of dollars if you don’t handle this in a respectable way, but it’s like, “Okay, but what’s my humanity worth?” Right? And I think that’s my ongoing frustration. I think it also goes into, like–so thankfully on Living Corporate, like, when we ask the questions people answer fairly transparently, and we push and we rarely get–we get to where we want to go, but I think there’s also, like, a fear of organizations even admitting wrong in the name of mitigating litigious risk, and it’s like, “Look, y’all, just admit that you’re wrong.” Like, the thing about it is most people, believe it or not, don’t even have the time, energy, or money to pursue a lawsuit. Like, that is so tiring. Like, people really over–I don’t know, man. Folks just think like Black and brown folks are out here just can’t wait to sue. I mean, we live in a litigious society, but it takes a lot of effort, time–I gotta go find a lawyer, and then I gotta put the money up. Just admit that you were wrong, and then guess what? Y’all make money. Just being willing to handle what you need to handle outside of court like 90% of these things get handled anyway and move on. But, like, there’s so much mental gymnastics I think that happen where folks just don’t want to own that, you know what I mean?
Shonnah: Exactly. No, I 100% agree with you, and what you just said is the exact way I felt and is actually the exact way that our CEO Zander Lurie felt. However, the information didn’t actually trickle up to him until, you know, a few days after, right? Like, he wanted to take immediate action. He wanted something like this to happen–I mean, not wanted something like this to happen, but–
Zach: No, he wanted the smoke though.
Shonnah: Yeah, he was with the stuffs. [both laugh] You know what I’m saying? He was with it. Unfortunately, like you said, jumping through those hoops of–you know, this is where it’s important to make sure that your leadership team, regardless of what level leader they are, you know, team leads, managers, executives, whoever it is, making sure that they understand what is your values and what you’re willing to do about those values, right?
Zach: Yeah. And, you know, it’s interesting because I think this season, right, of folks having to sit at home, all of the exacerbated civil unrest due to state and federally-sanctioned brutality against Black and brown bodies, it’s forcing folks to focus on even the words. Like, you say center your values, but it’s true. Like, no, really, what are your values? And it’s important to really think about, “Okay, so what am I actually–” And it’s important to say, like, “What are not my values?” Right? Because if you sit back and you say, “Well, one of my values is people,” okay, well, then what does that mean practically speaking? Because if something is of value to you, that means that you’re willing to let other things go for this thing because it’s of value, right? So when you sit back and say, “Well, integrity is a value,” or “people is a value” or “trust is a value,” but then you do things to, like, directly undermine that, then yo, those are not your values. And it’s good actually to interrogate and really just say, like, “Okay, look, these are not my values,” but some of that I think just also has to do with, like, a lot of us are scared to look in the mirror, you know what I mean? I can say for me, like, you know, if I know I’ve been laying up, I ain’t really been moving around, I been eating crazy, I scuttle by that mirror. I ain’t trying to look. But if I’ve been doing what I need to do, I’ve been drinking my water, you know I’m saying, doing my daily meditations, drinking my tea, lifting some weights from time to time, I’ma stop and stare in the mirror, right? But, like, when you know you jacked up, it’s kind of like, “Well, dang, I kinda don’t want to look,” and I do think that that extends, right? I think there’s something to that, you know, at the global organizational level and then also, like you said, for leaders. Like, what are you actually standing for? Now, you may not like to look yourself in the mirror and say, “Yo, I don’t actually stand for Black people. I don’t actually care,” but if you’re honest with yourself you can figure out, “I don’t like that about myself,” and you can work with people to, you know, improve.
Shonnah: God. Isn’t that a word, right? “If you’re honest with yourself.” You know, so many people aren’t. We live in a world of, you know, falsities or window drapings and people just being so fake. [laughs] And not true and real to who they are, what they represent, and even if you are not for Black people, you know, and you say that, like, thank you. I know how to deal with you. You don’t have to like me. Like, no one on this earth ever said that you had to like me, but you do have to respect me, you know? There’s a difference. But we’ve gotten so, so off-path where it’s like everyone needs to, you know, love everybody. I was like, “I don’t even love or like everybody in my family. What are you talking about? What?”
Zach: You’re absolutely right. There’s, like, this heightened degree of niceties and, like, genteel, but it’s still harm, right? It’s harm. You know, you think about–
Shonnah: It is. Why is it harmful, though? Let’s talk about that. Why is that harmful?
Zach: It’s harmful because it’s not authentic, and it’s harmful because, you know, people–again, you’re absolutely right, people conflate niceness with respect, and they’re not the same. You know, you can calmly and genteel-y disrespect somebody. Like, you think about Mike Pence. Mike Pence was calmly, -calmly-, disrespecting both of them women. Calmly, with a straight face, with that serial killer stare, with them N64 graphics on his face. Looking like a character from Goldeneye 64. Just being as rude and disrespectful, and Kamala over here like, “Man, I just–” And there was a part in there, but it’s cool ’cause this is what we do, but there was a part where Kamala said, “I’m talking. I’m speaking.” And I was triggered. I said, “Oh, my gosh,”
Shonnah: “My momma? Where’s my momma?”
Zach: Yes. I was like, “I’m about to get slapped in the face. I’m gonna get pinched.”
Shonnah: Ours was bood in the mouth. You gonna get bood in the mouth.
Zach: Bood in the mouth? Where are you from? That’s funny.
Shonnah: I am actually from Minnesota, born and raised, but my family is from Illinois.
Zach: Okay, so check this out. Small world. So my family is from Mississippi, but my dad’s side moved up to Rock Island, Illinois. You know Rock Island? Around Quad Cities?
Shonnah: Uh, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Zach: Okay. That yeah sounded like you really kind of but don’t. Okay, that’s cool. So–
Shonnah: I kind of but don’t. You right. See, Black people know Black people. Oh, my goodness. [both laugh]
Zach: And then you said Minnesota born and raised, so you have to know Woodbury, Minnesota. You have to. I lived there for a couple of years when I was in middle school.
Shonnah: Oh, wow.
Zach: I know, right? Small world.
Shonnah: Yeah, that is a small world. We all know this state here is as racist as they get.
Zach: Ain’t it, though? And just as nice.
Shonnah: But it’s polite racism, man.
Zach: It’s polite though. Like, “Excuse me, Mr. N-word. Would you move?” Goodness gracious. Man, you know, I thought Zander’s interview was pretty fun. I ain’t gonna lie, Zander, you lost. [both laughing]
Shonnah: Exactly. Don’t worry. I love beating white men.
Zach: Oh, my gosh. That’s hilarious. Man, I can’t wait for Zander to listen to this interview.
Shonnah: He’ll be fine.
Zach: He’ll be great. I laughed when you said–we kind of went on this path because you said something like, “Zander wanted it,” and I could tell that Zander wasn’t playing because of the tone and frame of our conversation with talking about SurveyMonkey’s path and just y’all’s journey, and he acknowledged, you know, “There’s been critique, and rightfully so, that it took this moment, this year, for us to get to this point, but I’m here and I’m not going anywhere.” Because we talked about 2021 and he was like, “Look, we’re not changing. The intention and momentum isn’t slowing down. We’re gonna continue forward, and if you’re not interested in that, then you won’t work here.” And I’m curious to know, like, do you feel that? Like, do you feel that level of intentionality that Zander articulated?
Shonnah: I do. I actually do feel that. And, you know, there’s already been some changes he’s made that have really highlighted the fact that he’s committed to this. So I really commend his leadership and how he’s moving, I really do. It’s something that you rarely get to see, especially from someone at his level.
Zach: You know, you’re passionate about a lot of things. You’re also very vocal and, like, you let it be known that you’re a parent. You know, may I ask what it’s been like to work as a parent, and a Black one at that, during a global pandemic and everything else that’s going on?
Shonnah: You know, I actually took four weeks off after Juneteenth. I facilitated this big celebration, informational sessions, all these things for the entire organization, and then afterwards I was excited for that. That’s what kept me going for so long, I was really excited about it, but then after that it’s like I crashed, to be honest. Like, I crashed. Kids are at home 24/7, I’m at home 24/7, work isn’t slowing down. Like, I don’t know if you follow stock markets and how SurveyMonkey is doing. Like, the organization is doing great in this time. So it wasn’t slowing down for us, and then everything else that’s happening on top of that, and I consider myself an empath. Like, I feel things deeply, and I feel things that come off of, you know, the world, as in its energies and things of that nature, and I couldn’t properly grieve for my community because so many things were happening at once. People were losing their jobs. People were getting sick and dying. Kids were being at home without a parent because their parent had to work. They didn’t have food. They were being abused. Like, all of these things just start piling up on each other, and I literally felt like I was, like, I don’t know, I was in a black hole and I couldn’t get out. I couldn’t breathe. So I had to take some time for myself and focus on “Okay, we’re here. What can I do now? How can I help?” And that’s what kind of got me out of that.
Zach: Yeah. You know, I really–as a new parent, and as a Black one at that–
Zach: I appreciate that. Thank you very much. At this point folks who listen to Living Corporate regularly know because I talk about Emory all of the time. She’s 6 months old. She’s great. But I do think about that too, like, taking the time to grieve, and it’s privilege. It’s a privilege to be able to take time off, because, like–and there’s different industries, right? Like, I’m in client services as a consultant, so I have time. Like, I took–I’m recording this on the 9th of October, and I took this week off just to give myself, like, some air, but frankly, like, I’ve gone through my own trauma that I’ve dealt with in and outside of the workplace not related to any of this from last year that I’m still dealing with and navigating out of, like, not even to mention all of the things that have happened this year, right? So honestly it’s worth another conversation about grieving properly, right, or grieving effectively, because that’s work. Like, the more I think about it, it’s like, “Man, I have so much grieving to do.” Like, I look at it almost like laundry. You know, you’re just sitting over there like, “I have so much grieving to do,” and it’s really something that needs to be engaged because if it isn’t you sit back and you think, you know, that you don’t need to. Like, no, you need to engage.
Shonnah: So we–#1 we know… I think we’re all the way off-topic, but we aren’t given the time nor space to grieve as Black people. Period. I don’t think I’ve ever had the opportunity to properly grieve ever, and even though I took that time off, I took it off from work. I’m still a mother. I still have my non-profit. I still have all of these millions of things. I’m a caregiver to my parents. Like, there’s millions of things that go on behind the scenes that where people see you they go, “Oh, she’s so put together, this, this and that,” but you don’t know how much it took for me to get to this point.
Zach: Or what it takes for me to stay here.
Shonnah: Exactly, and as Black people we don’t get the time to grieve. And then if we are grieving, we’re looked at as weak, right? And that’s from the outside community, but that’s even from our own community as well.
Zach: No, you’re right. So, you know, it’s interesting. CultureAmp, another company, they talk about–you know, one of the things that they’re rolling out is mental health services and extra time to, you know, help with their marginalized employees, and I think about that more and more often. Like, if you were to probably put a dollar figure on… so there’s two ways you look at it, right, as a business. Like, you could put a dollar figure on how much it would cost to give all of that time off and all of the care, the health care, but then you could also look at it from the perspective of not giving that to your employees and the cost of the strain and the wear and tear and–
Shonnah: Yeah, the burnout that’s gonna happen.
Zach: That’s the word, the burnout that’s gonna happen, and I really do hope as HR organizations and, like, D&I champions and leaders, as, like, we continue forward and we look at 2021 that we, like, really do a hard reassessment of benefits, ’cause that’s really important. It’s not just about giving me the hours. It’s about making sure that, like, when I take that time off, when I come back I’m not looking at a mountain of work, ’cause time off–a lot of folks don’t take time off ’cause they’re like, “If I take time off, I’ma come back and I’ma just be that much more busy. I’ma be swamped.” So that means there are some organizational, systemic challenges, issues, ’cause there are some failures there just from a business optimization perspective if, when you leave and you come back, it’s almost like you just stopped working as opposed to you literally took a healthy break, and it’s time that you’ve earned, right?
Shonnah: And I think leadership, you know, that’s where the problems in leadership lie. There’s so many people in leadership or management positions that do not understand how to operationalize the policies that they have in place. So if you have an employee that needs to take time off, you should automatically have a process in place where that employee has a backup, where the next employee knows how to do that employee’s job and they’re able to take over, and you can divide that across the team or whatnot, but the lack of understanding how to operationalize these things. Now, when it comes to SurveyMonkey, I do have to say that they’ve been amazing. So as an organization in the U.S., we have what’s called flexible PTO–no, responsible PTO, so essentially unlimited PTO as long as you’re being responsible, right? So you can take off as much time as you need. Most people don’t like you said. They don’t because either they enjoy their work or they want to make sure that the work that they’re doing is, you know, not left by the wayside, and they want to make sure that they are being a good contributor to the organization, but SurveyMonkey was like, “Hey, take your time off. Whatever you need, whatever it is,” Zander said this to all of the employees, like, “This is coming from me. If your manager has anything to say about it, they have to answer to me. Take the time. If you need the time, take it.” And for all of our Black employees, they actually had an organization that deals with trauma and loss and grief and things like that come into our ERG group, and we’ve had multiple sessions with them on how to navigate and deal with these things and talk about them.
Zach: See, that’s fire, right? That’s the difference to me between, like, real leadership in the space and, you know, sending out an emailing and giving empty platitudes. That’s really cool. So we talked about at the top of your bio that you’re passionate about equity and accessibility from a tech perspective. Like, how do you believe this season, if at all, has exacerbated certain levels of inaccessibility and inequity in tech?
Shonnah: I mean, so many people have been set back. I haven’t seen as much of an impact on, like, tech jobs that I’ve seen on a lot of other positions, right? A lot of the organizations that I work with, they’re still hiring like crazy. However, people who are underrepresented, they can’t access those opportunities because their sources of support are gone. Their sources of, let’s even say mentorship or coaching, those are gone. A lot of people don’t have access to reliable internet, you know? They don’t have a computer that they can hop on. A lot of the things that they were doing, it was physical. You had to be in person to do them. You had to go to where it was. Like, they don’t have the access in their homes, and their homes might not even be the safest places for them to be when you think about how this pandemic has affected our communities. You know, it’s not just about the pandemic. I’m so tired of hearing about how many people have died. Yes, understood, but let’s talk about the people that are still living that need us.
Zach: Right, you’re absolutely right. I was talking to my wife about that very thing. I was like, “Over 210,000 people have died,” and I said, “You know, Candis, it’s crazy because–” First of all that’s just an obscene number. It’s ridiculous. And then I thought about, “Okay, each one of those people had a family and, like, friends.” So I think about how many people, like, millions of people were connected. Not to mention the 7 million who have tested positive, but all of the people that missed their friend, their father, their husband, their wife, their daughter, their cousin, right, their next door neighbor. Like, it’s just an insane amount of loss. It’s really not calculable, the loss. So I hear you. Sitting at where you sit at GetFeedback, which is part of SurveyMonkey, what are you most anxious about, and then conversely what are you most excited about looking at the next 18 months?
Shonnah: What am I most anxious about? I would have to say losing momentum. You know, people always say, you know, “This is this bright, shining thing that’s happening right now, and then people are gonna move on.” It’s kind of that question that you had to Zander, right? “What’s gonna happen in 2021? Are you gonna lose momentum?” That’s what makes me nervous, is that people, you know, once the world starts opening back up, people are going to completely forget, you know, or completely move onto the next thing, especially if they’re not authentic about what they want to do with what’s happening, you know, social justice and those issues. But I am optimistic about those leaders that are committed and that are authentic and that are creating programs that are putting money behind it, because we know progress follows the money, right? They’re putting money behind their words and their actions to make sure it’s something that’s sustainable for years to come.
Zach: Now, this has been a dope conversation. Before I let you get up out of here, do you have any parting words or shout-outs? Or both?
Shonnah: I just want to give a shout-out to all the Black people who are making stuff happen and just really, you know, living your authentic self and lifting while you rise. You know, I can’t thank you enough, because it’s because of you all that I’m here, and it’s gonna be because of all of us that the next generation is gonna be able to be here as well. So thank you.
Zach: Come on, now. All right, all right. We appreciate you. And look, y’all, you know what we’re doing. This is every single week we’re having these conversations, real talk in a corporate world. We’re centering and amplifying Black and brown folks at work. Don’t ask us where we’re at, okay, ’cause we’re all over Beyonce’s internet. You just type in Living Corporate, okay? Living Corporate and we pop up, all right? Check us out on our website, living-corporate.com. Check us out on Instagram @LivingCorporate, Twitter @LivingCorp_Pod, you know, and everywhere else, okay? We’re everywhere podcasts stream. We’ve got a whole web series, all these different shows that we’re doing focused on various types and experiences within the diaspora and the brown diaspora as well, ’cause what’s up brown people, we see you too. But anyway, all that being said, we have had Shonnah Hughes. You’ve been listening to her. Shonnah Hughes, as a reminder, is the global product growth and innovation evangelist at GetFeedback by SurveyMonkey and is a Salesforce MVP. ‘Til next time, y’all. Peace.